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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

"It's not the dogs or the dog breed: it's the owners"

78 replies

HazelPlayer · 05/11/2024 23:13

Do you agree?

The person who has said this several times is also thinking of getting either a Rottweiler or a Staffie as a pet around a young child.

OP posts:
HazelPlayer · 06/11/2024 16:53

ToBeOrNotToBee · 06/11/2024 16:40

131 kids over 48 years in a country of 335 million.
131 is 131 too many, but actually to me, it's really not alot.

And even if it's "not alot" (of attacks on children) in your opinion, your statement was "they're known for being fantastic with children".

How does killing 131 children in one country since the late 70s (not counting attacks that weren't recorded or attacks that didn't result in children dying) make them "fantastic with children"?

OP posts:
RickiRaccoon · 06/11/2024 16:59

I adore dogs but, as I see it, all dogs are animals. They're all a little unpredictable, especially around kids who are also unpredictable. I don't know if even the most amazing dog trainer could 100% guarantee no attacks by their dog and the reality is the average person isn't even a dog trainer.

On top of that certain breeds have physical and personality traits that make them more dangerous. My dog got attacked by a standard poodle he was fine: a bit of bruising and a couple of puncture wounds. The vet said I was lucky it was a soft-mouthed breed. He also got attacked by a bull-breed dog he almost died. The jaws of the bull breeds are that much stronger they just crushed his body.

SirSniffsAlot · 06/11/2024 17:01

Puppies are not a blank slate at 8 weeks old. By then much has happened to them (pre and post birth) that informs their later characteristics by influencing things like adrenal response to stess.

And that's without taking into account the incredible role genetics has on behaviour - a fact that underpins all the different breeds and various jobs they have been bred and employed to do.

On top of that, experiences, training and medical status in the first months of life are also very influencial. Followed by experiences, training and medical status ongoing for life.

Anyone claiming it is 100% this or that is lying or simply does not know what they do not know.

PyreneanAubrie · 06/11/2024 17:03

Well said @bumblebee1987 !

PyreneanAubrie · 06/11/2024 17:07

LibisMum · 06/11/2024 10:03

no - that's rubbish. I own three different breeds, pedigrees, all bred to do a specific job.

The terriers are bred as ratters, and they are great at it, one shake and dead rat, the retrievers are bred to gently bring something back to you - rubbish with rats, might catch one, but no idea what to do with it, no killer instinct, my golden just drops it and the terrier grabs and shakes.

my retrievers were bringing things to me as pups without being taught, my terriers had to be taught to let got of something "precious".

Dogs do better in situations where you work with their instincts not against them - so police drug detection dogs are more likely to be spaniels/retrievers not the Shepherds who are used in active chase and detain situations. There is a reason you don't see Golden retrievers being deployed to detain a fleeing burglar 😆🤷🏼‍♀️

We've bred different dogs for different purposes, if you have a dog breed that was DESIGNED to chase, kill, defend, tackle large prey, then that is what it will instinctively do.

Rotties were bred as livestock guarding dogs, so they can be territorial, that doesn't make them bad family pets, but it's a trait you have to manage. I've known some nice staffies, but personally I would never have any of the breeds that are in that bull terrier "family".

Sorry but this is not correct - a Rottweiler is a Droving dog, it is not and never has been a Livestock Guarding Dog. In fact, it's not even a guarding breed.

lollypopsforme · 06/11/2024 17:08

Same can be said for kids.
Its not the kids fault its the parents.
Sorry its MN always SEN no ones fault.

funinthesun19 · 06/11/2024 17:08

Certain breeds are vicious and dangerous no matter what the owner is like. But some people still genuinely believe XL bullies are only dangerous because of the owners 🤦🏼‍♀️.
Some owners might make them even worse, but even the “good” owners can’t control or handle them. Those things just aren’t compatible with humans at all.

AutumnLeaves1990 · 06/11/2024 17:17

Icanflyhigh · 05/11/2024 23:15

I agree - having worked with dogs for 30+ years I can tell you with clarity that no puppy is born bad.

Irresponsible owners who don't invest time and effort in the correct training are the cause in 99% cases of dogs being poorly behaved.

No amount of training can change genetics.

anxioussister · 06/11/2024 17:19

Icanflyhigh · 05/11/2024 23:15

I agree - having worked with dogs for 30+ years I can tell you with clarity that no puppy is born bad.

Irresponsible owners who don't invest time and effort in the correct training are the cause in 99% cases of dogs being poorly behaved.

But dogs are literally bred to have characteristics. Collies will herd anything without training, scent hounds like beagles are practically untrainable once they have caught a scent etc. Staffies + Bullies etc have been truly bred for jaw strength - and the speedy inbreeding of them recently has exacerbated more aggressive traits.

A puppy isn’t bad because animals aren’t moral. A Lion cub isn’t born bad either - but we do keep them in zoos and safari parks because it isn’t appropriate to have an animal that strong with an unpredictable temperate in a domestic house…

HeadNorth · 06/11/2024 17:20

I don’t know what your AIBU is, but it is obvious to me that if a small dog is a vicious wee shit you can punt it across the room with a well aimed kick. A big dog is a different matter, so that makes them inherently more dangerous.

Fevertreelover · 06/11/2024 17:20

Icanflyhigh · 05/11/2024 23:15

I agree - having worked with dogs for 30+ years I can tell you with clarity that no puppy is born bad.

Irresponsible owners who don't invest time and effort in the correct training are the cause in 99% cases of dogs being poorly behaved.

Some are born with natural aggression or are more dominant though. That takes a fair bit of experienced training to work with. My most dangerous and difficult dog I've owned was a Lab who was extremely high prey drive and very dominant. It took months of hard training to get him to a place where he was safe around others and even then I wouldn't have left him with anyone. I've also had GSDs and Rottis who have been no bother at all.

PoorlyBlah · 06/11/2024 17:27

I think it's a bit of both, and different breeds definitely have different temperaments and traits. There are also genetic lines in the mix with some parents coming from a line of aggressive bred dogs.

I grew up around dogs and in a very dog orientated family which firmly believed it was always the owners fault if a dog was difficult, aggressive or untrainable. And there are a lot of doggy lovers out there who seek to perpetuate this line because of their love for dogs. Which I understand but it's not helpful.

Since having my own dogs and getting to know different breeds over the years, I can say there are huge differences between breeds and even within the same breed. We have a husky mix. He has a very strong prey drive which has been very hard to train him out of. He is incredibly strong, and if he wanted to, I don't doubt he could kill another dog, maybe even a human. Luckily, we've worked hard to train him and he's incredibly loveable and soppy. He's never shown any aggression towards humans at all. He wouldn't, I believe, harm anyone. But, I do think with a large dog like that, you have to be very careful and always aware and know they always have the potential to do harm. They are animals with animal instinct.

One of our other dogs is a very small, gentle breed. I don't believe he could harm another dog even if he tried really hard! He hasn't got it in him. He also has no strength, so even our children can walk him on their own and if he pulls on the lead they will still have full control over him.

I could imagine that in the wrong hands, or with a lapse of due care and attention, when feeling threatened or otherwise provoked, many big strong dogs have the potential to do significant harm. Some breeds could do a lot of harm. And if a dog breed is specifically Cally bred for aggression or from an aggressive line, then the end result is not good.

I also do think that generally, when out walking your dog, some owners of pretty 'easy' breeds have no clue the struggles other owners go through with their often very complex and difficult to train pooches! There are a lot of judgemental dog owners out their who credit their dogs beautiful behaviour to their own talents and will look down on owners still training their dogs or who are having trouble with their dog on a particular day. While good training has a lot to do with their dogs behaviour I'm sure. The route to achieving good doggy behaviour is not the same for everyone and a little more patience and a little less judgment between owners would be nice!

SadSadGirl · 06/11/2024 17:40

Icanflyhigh · 05/11/2024 23:15

I agree - having worked with dogs for 30+ years I can tell you with clarity that no puppy is born bad.

Irresponsible owners who don't invest time and effort in the correct training are the cause in 99% cases of dogs being poorly behaved.

No but all dogs are born predators and hunters. It's in their nature. It's not their fault, though.

CutthroatDruTheViolent · 06/11/2024 17:42

No I don't believe it, and I think it's one of the more stupid things people say to justify bad decisions.

If a person with an exotic big cat was mauled and died, people wouldn't be saying similar - but they're both cats? Just one bigger than the other? Let's ignore that one has much bigger teeth and stronger jaws.

No doubt people will tell me that's a silly comparison - but I don't think so.

PuppySnores · 06/11/2024 17:54

anxioussister · 06/11/2024 17:19

But dogs are literally bred to have characteristics. Collies will herd anything without training, scent hounds like beagles are practically untrainable once they have caught a scent etc. Staffies + Bullies etc have been truly bred for jaw strength - and the speedy inbreeding of them recently has exacerbated more aggressive traits.

A puppy isn’t bad because animals aren’t moral. A Lion cub isn’t born bad either - but we do keep them in zoos and safari parks because it isn’t appropriate to have an animal that strong with an unpredictable temperate in a domestic house…

God, yes. I was startled when I took my daft puppy to tracking training.

Having been more or less the dunce with no impulse control in obedience classes, and the clown who headed off across the field at agility lessons, suddenly she was focused, intent, and frankly the star of the class.

The other dogs present were nice, well-behaved dogs -- a Dobie, collie-cross and terrier. They were willing, and well controlled, and started to get the hang of it after a while.

Mine's a spaniel. She just had it in her without telling.

tsmainsqueeze · 06/11/2024 18:20

Excellent post Bumblebee.
I have over 35 years experience working with dogs and i couldn't agree more .
Since the start of my career i have never seen so many dogs with aggressive behavioural issues, controversial on here i know but some of the main ones are the poodle cross types and the imported rescues, neither of which we have seen in such vast numbers in years previously.
I would also add unknown bull breed mixes xl bully inc,( staffordshire bull terriers not included)
They absolutely do have genetic predispositions ,it makes no sense at all to deny this -potential owners do not choose a dog on its appearance alone .
As a society due to the ridiculous 'mixing' of breeds and the selfish money grabbing breeders to which dogs are nothing but a commodity we now find ourselves in a dangerous mess.

UmbrellaEllaEllaElla · 06/11/2024 18:30

I do agree.

henlake7 · 06/11/2024 18:37

I think 99.9% of the time its the owners fault.

Meaning not only people getting the wrong dog for their circumstances or not training/controlling their dog properly but also irresponsible breeding (even to show levels as Im sure brachephalic dogs didnt ask to be fighting to breath!).

XL bullys are a good example of where breeding has resulted in a line of dogs with aggressive tendencies. It could just as easily happened with a chihuahua (and probably has) but only one can kill you in a second.

Fairislesweater · 06/11/2024 18:39

autienotnaughty · 06/11/2024 09:47

It's bad owners
It's incompetent owners
It's pre disposition
It's health of dog

It isn't black and white but ultimately an owner has a responsibility to ensure their dog is safe.

I quite agree and would add anatomy to this list.

Fairislesweater · 06/11/2024 18:40

CutthroatDruTheViolent · 06/11/2024 17:42

No I don't believe it, and I think it's one of the more stupid things people say to justify bad decisions.

If a person with an exotic big cat was mauled and died, people wouldn't be saying similar - but they're both cats? Just one bigger than the other? Let's ignore that one has much bigger teeth and stronger jaws.

No doubt people will tell me that's a silly comparison - but I don't think so.

I agree wholeheartedly. I said on another thread that a wolf wouldn’t be a suitable pet, so why would a dog of similar size/power with known aggressive traits?

NeverFastAlwaysFurious · 06/11/2024 19:04

I had a rottie around my baby daughter. He was our world and then I came home from the hospital with her and said "we need to rehome him. No way can I have that risk". I left hospital on a Saturday and DP said we can't take him anywhere on a Saturday. We'll call around on Monday. By the Monday he made it clear he was no risk and they were the very best of friends until she was 6. We were all devastated by his loss.

We then got an Akita who could very much be a risk with a small kid but is fine with a teen and we are responsible owners so know what to do. He turned our world around because we were of the opinion that a dog can be trained to do anything - Rottweilers certainly can - but this dog has traits that will never be trained out of him by anyone that's not the worlds best trainer. He has a prey drive so I wouldn't let a small baby or toddler run around near him and he grumbles if you take his food - we got that down from him trying to kill us over a sandwich. Joke!!!!

So, to sum up, they are bad owners. If you have a bad dog but are a good owner then everyone is safe. That doesn't mean it's not the breed too.

Stretchedresources · 06/11/2024 19:08

Of course it's partly the breed. A muscular dog is more dangerous.
I'd rather be bitten by a border terrier than a rottweiler.

applepipshake · 06/11/2024 19:12

bumblebee1987 · 06/11/2024 00:34

As someone else who has worked with dogs for many many years, I wholeheartedly disagree with this. It's the hill that I will choose to die on.

Breed and genetics play a HUGE part. You cannot train genetics out of a dog. There are many breeds that should NEVER have been domestic pets. You can reduce the risk to an extent by being a responsible owner who understands and meets your dogs needs 100%, but a large number of dogs aren't actually in the right homes or with the right owners. Fortunately for the vast majority of people this doesn't lead to catastrophic outcomes, but in the tragic cases that reach the news, it does. A miniature poodle who is lacking the mental stimulation that they require, is never going to have the same dire consequences as an XL bully would in a similarly unsuitable environment.

Puppies aren't born bad, however, they are born with a genetic predisposition to certain characteristics, to deny this and say that it's all down to the owner, is absurd. If it was all down to the owner and training, then why do we pick specific breeds to be police dogs, service dogs, herding dogs etc? It's because of genetics, hence why we don't just pick any dog for those tasks.

People repeatedly buy unsuitable breeds, that have significant power and genetics that don't lend themselves to being domestic pets, and then claim they are shocked when it all goes wrong.

I adore dogs. I spend my life with dogs, but we are doing them a disservice by repeatedly forcing them to fit a domestic mold, when some of them just don't. None of this is the dogs fault, it is all the fault of people who refuse to acknowledge the genetics and potential that their dog has.

Well said, I agree.

User1786 · 06/11/2024 21:00

Whilst the owners obviously make a huge difference, there’s no doubt that larger breeds are more of a risk. Simple risk assessment. Even if we accept all dogs present a similar likelihood of attack, the potential hazard of a more powerful breed is much larger so the overall risk of harm is greater. Add to the fact that most (not all..) of the people that choose these breeds seem to value the power and aggression they are more dangerous.

Lalalaahhh · 06/11/2024 21:32

@Icanflyhigh In what capacity? To suggest you can attribute behaviour to one factor - the owner - is nonsense. What makes a dog is a delicate interplay of genetics, hormones whilst in the womb, maternal influence, environment, health, experiences; you just can’t over simplify. Breed/type is a huge factor. An owner can definitely influence a dog’s behaviour, but what makes a dog behave the way it does is much more complex.

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