STEM v social science degrees

[Whcjsveh]

Flowing from the previous thread on a tren picking politics for their degree - I was curious to hear whether people really would mainly try and get their kids to do a STEM degree and whether docial science subjects like politics are seen as soft or less clever?

DH and I are both politics profs, me from a family which was mainly into STEM and I wanted to be a bit different though was equally good at both. However, twenty years ago doing a politics from a top uni was seen as pretty competitive.

DC is bright and has just started secondary and it did make me think - should I steer him towards STEM because it's the right thing to do? I think he's pretty rounded and could certainly succeed in both. Any thoughts?

@CharlieRight It’s just a solid base degree. Many engineers don’t remain in their field for long- three of DH’s siblings have engineering degrees but none of them have worked as engineers for years.

As a parent of a DC with a degree in humanities, I spent some time agonising over this. Going through a job search process though I don’t think it matters. IMHO, the division is more vocational vs non-vocational rather than STEM vs humanities. If a degree is non-vocational, it will be more challenging to land a job (if you don’t have a specific area in mind) simply because there are so many options out there. In that sense I don’t think maths is better than theology. Like you can work at Goldman Sachs with either. But landing a grad job seems to come down to how well you do in a rigid recruitment process and how relentless and resilient you are. That said, I do think skills of writing well and being numerate are universally valuable once you actually land a job.

I mean, really do we just want to live in a country run by STEM graduates, what would that look like? I have an English Lit Masters but now in my 40s work in info sec, privacy, I'm definitely better at the job due to my Arts and politics background.

My thoughts are that the education system is steering them all towards STEM as the GCSE triple science and maths syllabus is quite heavy on content so they end up spending a lot of time doing it at state secondary schools and then sort of fall into it, believing that was their main talent. I would say 3 out 4 of mine are complete all rounders and I can see the education system making them STEM orientated. Although they could equally have excelled at MML, Classics, History etc etc - the opportunities are just less in state schools to do these and also because they do not set in state schools for the latter subjects quite often but put the brighter kids into sets for Maths and STEM it can become self fulfilling.

Some interesting views

@deademptyduck it’s rare for someone doing a criminology degree to get a job full stop

I mean that can’t be true. Lots of YP do a degree in criminology (I know a couple) and I am pretty sure they do not end up unemployed forever. Maybe not many get a job in that specific area but after all, that’s true for many degrees unless you do something like med/vet/dental/engineering. A degree in biology is no guarantee of a job in that field.

Lots of jobs require a degree, any degree – I only used the specific subject of my degree when I was a classroom teacher of it, but it has ticked the “has a degree” box in applications over the years.

And I would dispute the implication that a high-paying career is the only important thing in life. If you love your role as a top-lawyer or financial whizz, or even as an engineer, happy days. But plenty of us would hate those roles. I would rather be working in a lower-paying role that I actually enjoyed and felt fulfilled in tbh.

@Ytcsghisn – Mickey Mouse degrees? That’s a bit insulting to those of us who have one. As it goes I don’t know any YP (and I know a few) who has done media studies as a degree. But maybe you are using that as shorthand for “pointless degree”. I value knowledge and research and improvement of skills for their own sakes. And many if not all degrees will offer that option. Plus see my comment above – so many roles ask for "a degree" and the Mickey Mouse ones like mine will work well there.

I agree btw that not all degrees are equal. Some are much more likely to lead to high-paying employment than others. Clearly if you are smart and dedicated enough to get a place on a dental degree, and you complete the course and qualify, you have great employment prospects at a good rate of pay. (The same goes for other degrees, some perhaps in a less obvious way.) But what if you don’t fancy a lifetime of staring into people’s mouths? Or your science skills are just not up to it? What then I wonder. Still you can always take your degree in politics and go into the city, apparently.

As a former investment banker, you really can thrive in investment banking (non quant) without maths. Economics you don’t need at all apart from core principles that I consider to be general knowledge. You literally only need arithmetic. But you won’t get in with a U in anything. The only reason investment banking pays so well is that you need to compensate people for giving up a life. I mean you do need to be bright, generally be able to multi-task, be presentable etc but subject matter knowledge is irrelevant.

@ErrolTheDragon Yes, I’m being coy about DD’s branch of engineering as I think that some of my friends are on MN!

No, but it would be a bloody good thing if a few of our leaders were STEM literate and also if more had experience in a range of industries ...the current cabinet doesn't.

It depends on the degree. I did Psychology and a lot of people see it as a soft science/non-STEM degree. But the reality is, Psychology is such a broad degree and gives you so many different possible job routes. My friends have gone into counselling, research, further medical degrees, analytics, HR, business development, marketing, etc.

I agree with this and know someone that is one, they are just really sharp, quick multi-tasker, unclustered and actually always reading up on different things, knowledgeable about loads of things and an amazing memory.

Yes of course but at graduate and post graduate level it is an entirely different skill set and we need the mix of minds, not just a country full of STEM graduates.

Unflustered not unclustered.

I agree that the workforce needs a wide range of skills @Goldenbear. I also have humanities degrees and work in the nonprofit sector. I know that I’m good at what I do!

Again, it’s a case of playing to your strengths and thinking about where you see yourself in the future. I wasn’t really encouraged to think about where my undergraduate degree could take me and I wish I had been, tbh.

@Goldenbear I obviously have insights into my own students, our recruitment numbers and what our students want to do in the future - which is mainly just go into the city and get any job that earns you 6figure salary. I write multiple references a year and that's all I get requests for. And because I work at a great uni, we are never short of students.

However, as an academic, I am also aware of my own positionality, the fact that myself, my parents and Dh have only ever worked in academia and that most people don't actually trash your subject when you tell them that you are a prof in politics. Therefore, I was curious as to the general standing of the subject amongst others (perhaps alongside other social sciences).

If I have to be honest, am probably also a bit bitter that our salaries together with other more social science sectors have stalled over the last decade or so. I wouldn't recommend my kid to go into academianobut nor would I suggest they go for the civil service, think tanks or charities. When I was young - the pay was decent enough in all those places but not anymore. This has indeed become a century of the quants. Am I pleased about that....no, but do I want to ignore those facts for my kids, also a no.

we need the mix of minds, not just a country full of STEM graduates.

Agreed - but in terms of people leading the country it currently skews away from stem rather than towards it,

100% agree

STEM careers are in most demand at the moment across Europe as a result of skills shortages in ICT industries. As economies go digital/green, there aren’t enough qualified staff to achieve that. (There are also shortages in healthcare/social care - but STEM pays better and kids want to be able to afford housing, and are very aware of that.) So everyone is being encouraged into STEM. In year 11, DS’ school showed them a slide of which A-levels led to higher salaries. Further maths was at the top, art was at the bottom.

DS is good at/enjoys physics/maths so going in that direction is logical. I don’t know which way DD will go. However, as a humanities graduate, I think once we’ve got lots of STEM people it will start to go the other way and we’ll need the ability to read/write/develop arguments/present ideas that people get from politics/English/history etc degrees.

You are right I have moved on to GM'ing, I am just moaning. Many of the skills are transferable and possibly honed to a higher standard - I would say engineers and scientists do the best graphs no matter what the subject matter.

I think those who are excellent at maths and science would be more challenged by essay subjects, where the skills needed to succeed are very different. And vice versa. Yes, some people can do everything, but most people will be stronger in one set of skills than the other.

Better to succeed at something you enjoy and are good at than to fail at something you think would be better for you long-term. University is about more than slogging your guts out. Arguably fewer people should go at all, but the other options aren’t always as appealing or mapped-out.