DH putting too much pressure on DS’s education

[artylondon]

Good morning everyone - it’s my first time posting, looking for some advice.

My DH and I live in London with our lovely DS, 12.
Of course I’m biased, but I’m really proud of DS, who is a friendly, generally very happy nearly-teenager. He is bright and really articulate and engaged in conversation, but he has never been very focused at school or particularly interested with more fact-based subjects like Sciences & History. No learning difficulties, but he has always struggled with Maths particularly.

However…my DH has always been much more concerned by his academic record. He’s from a very posh, very high-achieving family, where everyone is Oxford-educated and went to the same very intense private schools. He thinks DS needs more focus / structure / tutoring to do well. This is particularly intense where we live (much more DH’s natural background) where a lot of parents pay for tutoring for exams and entrance to competitive schools. I’m sure Mnetters are familiar! It’s coming to a crux as DS moves to senior school next year.

DH’s family are also, I think, putting a lot of pressure on DH to do this and are paying for school fees. I obviously want a good life for DS too, but I think it’s fine for him to enjoy his strengths and just to get what he needs in school to live a full life when he is older.

I’m from a much more ordinary background and this feels ridiculous and too much pressure, but it feels incredibly normalised for people like DH.

My DH is otherwise close with DS and they have a really good relationship. This is the main point of tension.

It was a bit tongue in cheek, but part of the issue is that yes, he can be a bit conventional!

thank you for your very helpful and not rambling experience!
DH adores DS, but I feel he needs to go through a bit of a process of acceptance to see DS just as he is.

Thank you, this exactly. I’m not pushing DS to be creative, he just naturally falls into this way. I’ve had a very independent, creative life, before finding more stablility with DH (which I wanted) and I have wondered if I should have made myself be a bit more disciplined and pursued a clearer career professionally - but I know this would have left me feeling ‘not enough’. I’m trying not to let my personal preferences influence DS too much, but naturally I’ve spent a lot of time doing creative play and sharing my interests with him. Meanwhile, DH has tried to share his interests, e.g. his childhood books, and DS just … hasn’t been as interested.

Thank you, this is exactly it. All of DH’s family are / have been in law, finance, academia etc, and there is a very strong sense that you pursue what is sensible and prestigious. I’ve probably made him sound awful, but he really is a kind, generous man who is trying to provide the best for DS, and worries that he’ll end up aimlessly wandering around the globe making art and not much money (which is sort of what I did until I met DH!)

Yes, I think that’s possibly a whole other thread! It does feel like they have a sense of ownership; for example they got DS into a particular nursery through calling in a favour. I’m grateful for the financial support which I never would have been able to provide, but it’s a lot to come up against.

I wonder what does you Ds enjoy doing as in producing? Does he like going to galleries or does he actually enjoy doing art and is good at it? My impression is that in the long ru , it is a lot easier to steer a kid into the more conventional direction of good uni, solid job that a creative one. You need to be more better as a creative with many more skills than ij a city job. Plus even if he is creative - he needs solid maths and English e.g. maths for doing accounts and budgets, English for writing and promoting stuff. So I would still instill the notion that he needs to get his academics up if he wants to be creative.

Plus and I appreciate this is controversial - very controversial.....do you think he can make a living that he would like to with the creative stuff. He is only 12 and is still young. But I was recently talking to a friend in tech who is also great at drawing. He mentioned how he tried to get onto a graphic design when you get but didn't get in and did tech instead. 20 years later he is glad of it as he can still draw in his spare time but actually being a graphic designer or creative is very stressful, poorly paid and you mostly end up having to do what others want to which isn't all that creative.

Thank you, you're very kind about my parenting :) not sure my dc would always agree...

I wonder if it might help your dh to be reminded that the world's changing, fast, and those who can be adaptable, creative, think in different directions and manage with limited resources might well be those who do best in the decades ahead? I'm thinking mainly of when the climate change shit really hits the fan, but also AI may be a factor. Certainly law and finance are likely to change emphasis a lot.

THat’s really great to hear, and also shows I think that children are their own people. Some in particular - you can see the blueprint is there already so early on.

OP - there's something that keeps jumping out at me that makes me a little sad & that's your DH seems to be determined that your son is 'deficient' somehow.

To be ABSOLUTELY CLEAR having SEN does not mean someone is deficient or broken in some way but there are definitely parents who decide that cos their child isn't high achieving there must be something wrong with them. Nothing in your posts suggests your son needs extra help in a SEN sense yet multiple posters & your DH have suggested it. His teachers have ZERO concerns yet dh paid for testing anyway - I find that really sad & will not have done your son any good at all.

Your son may just not be academically inclined & that's absolutely fine, there's simply nothing wrong with that at all. Most people don't have the ability to be Dr's etc. Not sure what your DH's family do & what jobs they expect of their offspring - are they jobs of value or just jobs that earn lots of money, societal status & bragging rights?

MN highly leans towards private education & tutoring & status, it's not reflective of the real world at all.

To me you have a DH issue, not a DS one. To ME happiness, natural confidence is paramount in young people & forcing your square-peg son into your round-peg in-laws expectations could do the exact opposite.

I think you need to be firmer with impressing your background & mentality. What does your son actually want to do?

I think its important OP that you instil a bit of realism alongside aspiration. There's no two ways around it, forging an economically viable career in art is extremely challenging.

Can i take an educated guess that it's your husbands presumably more academic career that is paying the prep school fees and hefty london mortgage?

If this is the case, is your son aware of it? He might be thinking your career in art is lucrative - maybe it us, and thats great, but thats definitely the exception rather than the rule for a lot of artists. For many people its a side hustle rather than their main source of income and its important to help him understand he might need other options open to him?

At his age it is worth having a discussion with him about how the future year's will pan out. For example in terms of maths we have made it clear to the dc that they don't have to do maths A level however if they don't get above certain grades then they will have to keep doing maths after 16 until they do pass them. They get that a bit of investment of time now means they can drop the subject sooner. Later on we also discussed that certain schools they found desirable had higher thresholds for sixth form entry so if they want to go there then they will need higher grades.

Could reading about artists / plays etc be dh's project and perhaps your project with ds? Dh to show that he values the things that ds is interested in. You doing more reading to show that you value reading about and not just doing art. As ds seems to be valuing your strengths more I would perhaps try to show him that actually you value maths and how much easier it would be for you if you worked harder at it. Maybe the things dh is supporting you with in terms of finances you need to be visually asking dh for help to understand and do yourself so ds realises that maths isn't something anyone can opt out of.

I agree with this, I think creativity is likely to be at a premium in a post AI world.

He can in theory, but it’s far more difficult now in practice

And your DH probably missed out on a lot of opportunities, experiences and joy because he was following the familiar and safe route to finance, law and academia and never being brave enough to take risks and wander aimlessly around the world making art.
My ex came from a long line of military officers and Oxford academics. He was academically bright but his passion was art. His dad was "disappointed" in his choices but his mum was always very supportive. And, unfortunately, his relationship with his father was strained throughout adulthood as a result. Is he rich and famous? No. But he lives his life with joy doing the thing he loves the most and making enough to pay his mortgage. And isn't it really what we want for our children?
You have to give your kids the freedom to lean into things that they love. You mentioned wanting to make your son more resilient. Resilience comes from growing up in a supportive environment, knowing that you have people around you who will catch you if you fall.

My experience is recent. I finished my masters 3 years ago. What is difficult is being told from a young age that you missed your boat and are now doomed, whereas the reality is very different and life-long learning is very much a thing. There was a woman in my undergrad course who was doing her first degree at 62. And, arguably, we got much more out of our education than 18-year-olds because we were genuinely interested in the subject rather than drinking £1 shots at a student union bar or, indeed interfering with pigs like they allegedly do at Oxford.

Thank you, I like this approach with maths - not hand-holding but also being supportive.

Whilst your husband may need to review is expectations for your son, he does have a point of your son is struggling to engage with multiple subjects.
Sounds like your husband’s own background has provided success for him (same for his wider family) so I can understand why he would want the same for your son. You also said that with his input your own work has improved a lot.
So whilst pursuing your dream/passion is great, it also has to be realistic.

A lot to consider at age 12 but it brings me back to his grades - doing well across subjects broadens his options for life.

Thank you. This actually made me feel quite moved.

Getting DS tested at the time also was a point of disagreement. DS’s family pushed it, but also I think DH was thinking along the lines of: maybe SEN would explain less than top grades. Whereas I just felt he was a happy middling student.

I do need to be stronger with impressing background and mentality. I still feel quite intimidated by his family, although DH is ok at backing me.

I went to one of these top schools and Oxbridge and it worked well for me - but I'd say that trying to force kids into that sort of set up and then having them being at the bottom of all their classes does a lot more harm than good. I had perfectly intelligent friends who thought they were stupid for decades. Also, I'm very successful in my career in finance but I'd say success in someone's career has a lot more to do with their attitude, emotional intelligence, overall confidence, etc than just their academic success. I say all of this to say that you need to make sure the focus is on supporting your kid's strengths and building them up/teaching them life skills - not just fitting your DH's template.

A few posters have mentioned this, which is really helpful - I think I can show my son more confidence in maths by managing my (small) business a bit more. Basically, I got by but when I met my DH he offered to help and it’s hugely benefited me. He manages all the financial stuff in our house (while also trying to involve me) and I am being a bit lazy about leaving it to him because I find it boring. That’s not a very feminist example to set, I am aware. I do the DIY!

Actually, I just remembered something that is a bit more positive. Last year, DS designed our Christmas cards, and DH told him to choose a local business to get the design printed, and to look at cost per card etc, whether to get first or second class stamps, choosing wording for the inside. DS was more engaged and it seemed to combine their different personalities in a helpful way. Now I’m wondering if there are similar things they might be able to do in the future.

It's concerning that your husband's reaction to a child who is talented and interested in Art/Craft/Design is that there must be something wrong with him (and that other posters are declaring that he'll inevitably be a failure and incapable of degree level study with 5+ projected at GCSE).

It's possible that his spatial and non verbal reasoning skills are very high and the current style of education isn't making things make sense because they're focused upon a purely text/language based approach - an example would be for Maths;

Here's a division question: 300/25 = ?

A child 'like your husband' knows the answer because the numbers on the paper require a specific answer. Another child, however, has learned to see those numbers as representing sharing out 300 marbles between 25 children or 'how many children can have a bag of 25 marbles?'.

Both can answer the question correctly, but one applies the mathematical concept to a specific situation and the father is telling the one who can apply the concept to a situation (and vice versa, sees a situation and works out what concept is needed) is automatically wrong. A question on area or the length of the hypotenuse of a particular right angled triangle can be answered by somebody 'doing the maths' or by somebody knowing if you are being sold a TV with a 46" screen, that's the diagonal and if you have the width, you can use that formula to work out the minimum gap between shelves for it to fit. And would be aware from their visualisation that it's likely to need to be larger than that because of a stand or the frame around the screen and there's also depth to consider.

Even something like accounting can be divided into people who see purely numbers and people who visualise the different cost codes as boxes and laws as directions (or if they're interested in programming/logic/electronics/plumbing/engineering) and logic gates/process flow charts/diodes that determine the flow into those boxes.

The application of concepts is very possibly going to be where things begin to make sense and become interesting for your DS. Because they have a point to them, it's no longer a case of 'Why are we doing this?' 'Because you have to and if you don't get it, there's something wrong with you', it's 'This makes sense and solves issues/makes things work, I don't mind these at all'.

@artylondon I think that it would also be useful to let Ds know the realities of life e.g. would you be able to afford your current lifestyle without DH? Does Ds understand that? What are your aspirations for Ds?

Lots of my friends who are creatives have kids who also love it but they also try to teach them the practicalities e.g. you need to be really good, savy, great at networking, business savy, promoting yourself. Plus assume you wont get to live in a great area of london.

The reality also is that most of them are in fact married to someone with a conventional 6figure job. In that sense, it is also very gendered - the wife is creative and does kids, the partner is more conventional but nice and earns the money. Where in that scenario is your DC?

Of the people I know who have truly made it as a creative - they are often more ruthless, competitive and smart than the kids who go to Russell group unis and gets jobs in the city.

If your ds is doing OK in school and is kind and well behaved then I would be happy with that. He doesn't have to be a high flyer. Your dh needs to accept the son he has. Real high flyers do not need extensive tutoring. If he is struggling with a specific subject then by all means get him a tutor but I would otherwise leave him alone beyond insisting he does his homework and listens in class.

I am a teacher and I sometimes feel a bit sorry from kids who are basically middling ability whose parents push them to achieve grades they are really not capable of. The child feels they are not good enough. The parents are frustrated. The tutoring also sometimes sets up misleading expectations. A child is heavily tutored to get them through a GCSE so they then try to get an a level in that subject and struggle hugely because they are simply not cut out for the subject.

Poor lad. He's only 12!

I went to a very average state school, was considered pretty good at English, but I wasn't writing essays at 12 - never mind working on honing my technique!

I wouldn't pay any attention to his predicted GCSE grades at 12. There's a LOT of time and ground to cover before GCSEs happen.

As for my maths, I was poor at that. Left primary school with low grades (would probably have been flagged as special needs in that nowadays), but worked well at secondary school and finished with a B. I also had a tutor for my final few months before the exam. Proper old dragon of a lady, but she filled in my gaps, and I appreciated it when the final question on my final paper was a simultaneous equation, and much easier than the ones I'd been doing with my tutor! I pretty much hated every moment with my tutor, but I was able to see the bigger picture.