Can I tell this kid off? Feel awkward!

[ChilliHeeler1]

DD 7 is/was friends with a boy in her class who also in the next street. He’s always been a bit temperamental/his mum describes him as moody, often seems to do things to be purposely awkward, can be rude…..anyway him and DD always seemed to get on fine, enjoyed each others company etc. His mum has helped me with school runs etc quite a lot when I’ve been working etc. Recently her son has been very rude and unkind on several occasions to DD. He’s done this in front of me and his mum, his mum understandably gets a bit embarrassed and tells him to stop being rude etc and she’s text me before to apologise for him being unkind. I’ve asked DD if anything’s happened between them for him to behave like this/his mum has asked him and she has also told me that DD has literally done nothing to upset him. He’s just being mean basically. We don’t have play dates with them any more, but AIBU to tell him off if he is horrible to her again, whether his mum says anything to him or not? I feel like it’s a grey area, telling off someone else’s child, but I’m getting annoyed with his behaviour towards DD and she has also been upset. I know 7 is still little but it’s old enough to know when you’re being unkind to someone and I note he only singles DD out for it and wouldn’t dare try it with any of the others in their class.
I’m a bit worried about potential awkwardness between me and his mum because I do really like her! Any advice appreciated! Thanks!

If they don’t have play dates anymore and she tells him off if he does it in front of her I don’t see the issue? When are she and him alone with just you? I wouldn’t tell him off if his mum is there, unless of course she doesn’t do anything about it. In that situation I would maybe look at her to indicate that I’ve noticed and expect her to deal with it and failing that yes I would tell him off.
It’s also important to equip your daughter to stand up to him for those situations where an adult isn’t around or readily available to deal with it, which will be more and more as they grow up. Help her to practice making assertive statements like ‘please don’t talk to me that’, ‘that’s mean, I don’t want to play with you anymore’ and ‘if you are going to keep being unkind then I don’t want to be your friend’. And keep reminding her that she doesn’t have to tolerate rude and unkind behaviour from anyone and should spend time with lots of other friends. Obviously you can support this with play dates/activities with other children.

It depends. How does your daughter feel? Presumably the arrangement means that there might be times he’s rude to her when it’s just his mum who is there? I would check this out with your daughter and ask her what his mum does to deal with his behaviour when you aren’t there. If I thought this was going unchecked that would make me reconsider my childcare arrangements but if I was confident his mother was dealing with it and my child overall was happy with the arrangement I’d leave as is for now but keep it under review! It is difficult to rely on another parent for childcare as it can force children into ‘friendships’ that might otherwise have run their course under different circumstances.

You’re focusing on the wrong solution. The issue is continuing with an arrangement that is unpleasant for your dd. Sounds like he resents having her around for whatever reason and is showing that through his unkind behaviour. He’s not responding to his mum telling him off so I’m not he will change just because you do.

I think it’s an unfair arrangement on everyone at this point including the mum that’s aware of it but can’t for whatever reason get him to stop. I would not tolerate this sort of behaviour from my child but I’d also be pretty pissed and stressed at having to manage it everyday because I’m doing someone a childcare favour. My mum used to look after a neighbours child after school and I always remember hating having her in my space!

Long term lift arrangements like this should be mutually beneficial for all and this isn’t.

Even if your daughter starts standing up for herself (which you should help her learn to do anyway, it's a life skill), it's still a hugely uncomfortable situation for her. And is it likely to actually make him stop, given that he doesn't stop when his mum tells him to?

YABU to carry on with this arrangement. A constant drip of insults is incredibly damaging to a person's self esteem, especially a child. If this was happening in school, you'd expect them to be separated, wouldn't you? Even if it was inconvenient for the teacher?

I am with PPs in that I can't see why you can't change this at all, if you are literally arriving home as they are - why can't you pick up your other child a bit earlier and then get DD, or get DD first and have your younger child wait an extra 5 minutes? Nurseries don't close as early as schools do they?

And keep reminding her that she doesn’t have to tolerate rude and unkind behaviour from anyone

Except that she does have to tolerate it, because she's being made to get in a car with him

I very effectively managed this by using gentle words but a fucking stern face and my friend couldn’t quite see my expression. That stopped him kicking and hitting my son. Never did it again.

You need to make alternative arrangements for your DD after school transport. This boy is being nasty to her and you need to keep her away from him.

I get that you need her help with the school run but it doesn't sound good for your DD to be exposed to his mean behaviour. I'd be worried about what this is teaching her and trying to make other arrangements.

Exactly. She’s actually being taught the exact oppposite of this.

Do you think he's unhappy being 'stuck' with your DD for daily school runs? Not getting his mum to himself sometimes? Being tied in to picking her up/dropping her off rather than doing what he wants sometimes?

I don't see that you or DD can do/say to get him to stop while the lift arrangement continues.

Any 'Jenny won't be your friend' type response sounds like it will be met with 'good' because it sounds like he doesn't want her there at all.

You might even be heading towards her lashing out to 'she's not our family' comments with 'I'm glad, because you're horrible' and then she gets told off by his DM.

Perhaps it would be effective if his DM did some big consequences after the journey - no scouts tonight, no going to x's party tomorrow, if you can't be nice to other people. But I don't think there's anything you can do, you don't have the authority to do anything meaningful.

His DM might also be feeling guilty about him having to share her company with your DD because of the arrangement between you, rather than because she's his friend, and be not telling him off as robustly as you might want as a result.

The kid obviously resents his mum doing the school run for your DD. Some kids are like that and can’t handle their parent doing a favour for anyone else like drop off or babysitting. She should be firmer with him and tell him to wind his neck in and that he can cope with not having her undivided attention for twenty minutes. But if I were you I’d try to see if there are alternative options for school runs.

I would definitely make other arrangements.
It's horrible for your daughter and I doubt the other mum will want to do it for much longer anyway.

Sounds stressful all round.

No @ChilliHeeler1 you can't tell him off. You just need to avoid both him and his Mum. A polite nod of hello if you make unavoidable eye contact, otherwise remain as physically apart from them as possible.

It sounds to me as if the child doesn’t feel as if he is a priority, for whatever reason, and resents that his mother is giving your daughter a lift home every day. This seems to be at the root of his behaviour, and this is what really needs to change.
Finding an alternative solution to your after school pick up problem, would remove your daughter from the situation, but might not solve his actual problem. Have you tried actually speaking to your friend about the situation? Other than just accepting her apologies? Maybe you could try thanking HIM for helping you and your daughter out, and making him feel appreciated. Or speak to their teacher to find out if there’s something more going on in school. There’s ALWAYS a reason for children’s behaviour, and it’s very rarely “they just like being mean”.

If it’s literally 5 minutes and you pull up the same time then unfortunately you will need to alter timings slightly by the sounds of it. Also teach your daughter to stand up for herself. Also speak to the teacher and just mention it so they can see if this is going on with other kids etc

Not sure how much to say without it being outing but he’s often sulky if ANYTHING isn’t to his liking and his mum has mentioned several times to me over the years he is difficult at home, lots of strops and refusals to cooperate, my DD seems to be the only child he is unkind to though and I wonder if/am certain that this is because he sees her as a soft touch whereas the other kids in their class would give him shit back. Again without being outing, yes she is doing me a real favour by dropping DD home but I have returned the favour on several occasions with other things (think chaperoning to school events, kids parties, bottle of fizz and nice cheeseboard at end of term to show I appreciate her helping me out)
I agree I need to make other arrangements because it’s unfair on DD but again without being outing it’s quite tricky which is why the other mum offered to drive DD home as they’re a stones throw away.

He sounds like a brat.

I think the best way to approach is to go with

'Ah!' Sharp and abrupt. Then say

'We use kind words' or we don't say mean things, we don't snatch.

It's the collective use of the words 'we' that softens it a little bit. A reminder that rules apply to everyone. It's a bit less direct than 'you are naughty. You have been unkind etc'.

Then as soon as you've said it move directly to something else. So steps are

'AH' - said loud and sharp.

'We don't say mean things' - said in an controlled but softer way than than the 'Ah'.

'Right. Who would like an apple juice/to play xyz game/a snack'. - back in completely normal voice.

This is how I redirect/tell off other people's kids. It seems to work and it's over and done with so quick, don't even think parents seem to register it.

It sounds like her son is getting fed up of the arrangement, I know it's not out of their way but that time in the car is probably when he's tired from school etc. we had similar with my best friends little one, my daughter was getting grumpy like this, not outright rude but would throw a bit of a strop if we were dropping her friend or want to walk ahead etc instead of being her usually friendly self (this is her best best friend) again all I could do was say don't be rude etc but I would try and find another arrangement or try and reduce it if possible. My friend moved their other child's nursery in the end so we rarely help out now and everything has settled back down again.

Personally I don't think it's for the OP and her DD to try and resolve whatever issues this boy is having with his mother. I think that's a bit beyond their remit.

I would tell him off, and I would stop your dd playing with him. In fact, I have done this to one of ds friends who is just plain rude. He will be the only one jumping on our furniture, walking into rooms, opening cupboards, asking outright rude questions, annoying my dc. His mum does tell him off but he is just a rude child. So I stopped all play dates, and told my ds to keep a distance at school.
If he is singling out your dd, please stop all interactions with this child.

I think that you should take steps to sort out alternative arrangements for your dd after school.
Don't put her in a situation where she isn't wanted and can't get out of.

It isn't about the boy, because really he's just a child who doesn't like the arrangement his mother has come up with and he too is forced to go along with. He's playing her up as a way of letting you all know this, hoping that it will stop.

The only way for both children to be relaxed is for you to arrange something else for your dd.

You really need to sort alternative arrangements, nobody is enjoying this.

Your daughter is being picked on daily.
The little boy is upset (whether rightly or wrongly, he’s clearly unhappy).
The other mum is having to sort this out every day and tell her son off which is probably going to make him resent your daughter more.
You’re upset because your daughter is upset and are resorting to asking for advice on how to deal with the boy’s behaviour.

I’m really surprised the other mum hasn’t called this off before now with how upset it’s making her son and how much she’s having to arbitrate. She may find it really awkward and feel trapped and unable to stop, you should really end this for everyone’s sake.

I remember this when my daughter was about the same age. Boys and girls go from all playing together to believing they are different. He probably genuinely likes your daughter and might be being teased for it. He might also be jealous at having to share time with his mum. If they go to school together I'd be using it as an opportunity to teach your daughter how to deal with it rather than just stop them seeing each other. It'll be a life skill for sure and sadly one she'll probably still use when she's long grown.