Is this abuse?

[PoleCurtain]

I would be really grateful for some outside perspective to help my get clear and stay sane. My DH just told me I was abusing him. This is what happened.

I was trying to organise something fun for us and DC. I went to check he was up for it. He started questioning if it was possible. In an irritated voice I said something like ‘yes, of course it’s possible’ - the irritation was because it’s obvious to me, why would I suggest it if it wasn’t and he questions EVERYTHING I say. Never just trusts me despite not having any evidence of flakiness. I’m a pretty competent adult most of the time.

So he got cross and told me not to speak to him like that (but in a more cross and loud voice than me). At that point I didn’t back down I was activated by him getting cross and I told him I find it annoying that he questions everything I say - in an irritated tone. He got more angry and had another go at me for being irritated.

I then caught hold of myself and realised that I had been irritated and took a deep breath and started to say ‘yes, you are right, I’ve got lots of big emotions about a lot of things at the moment’ and was then going to say ‘and that came out in how I spoke, I’m sorry’

I didn’t get a chance to finish as he then shouted over me and I got a tirade of how awful I am and that he won’t be abused like this. I disagree with this characterisation of me and my behaviour. I manage my emotions pretty well three weeks in four - in the face of some high expressed emotion. Before my period I find it harder.

Was that abusive? I spoke in an irritated and cross way. I didn’t say anything mean or personal or generalise. I tried to say sorry.

He was far more vocal than I was, was louder and shut me down. Even when I asked calmly to be able to finish what I was saying and that I was going to apologise.

I see it as normal level irritation in a long marriage. But how normal is it to feel and show irritation with your spouse?

For context, and not to drip feed, I’m currently holding a boundary around his actual verbal abuse and he has admitted to it in counselling and we are working through that. He has also previously labelled my behaviour abusive in counselling and when I’ve asked him to clarify if he really does mean that, he says no and agrees that it’s not abusive what I do.

So - WIBU?

Was what I did abuse in your eyes?

How much do you feel and show irritation with your partner/spouse?

I am putting my hard hat on in preparation. I am also about to out so thank you in advance to anyone who replies and I will come back and check in later if I don’t have time now.

I think it's perfectly normal to irritate each other. Unless you were shrieking at him then it just sounds like a normal bit of bickering to me. DH does plenty that irritates me and I roll my eyes at him and moan. I do plenty that irritates him too, I'm sure. Hardly abuse though to be a bit impatient with your OH.

I mean, it's a bit rich of him to accuse you of verbal abuse when he was and has been more verbally abusive towards you. First cast out the beam out of thine own eye, mate.

However yes, expressing irritation at the drop of a hat can be abusive. I have a family member who often responds to almost everything I say with annoyance and frustration, and I experience that as abusive. I think it's how constant it is that makes the difference though; if it was occasional as you describe, then maybe not.

Thank you.

Sounds like a normal tiff to me. Marriage is hard hard work and we don't always treat our spouses as kindly as we should. When unkindness becomes the norm, then it's abuse.

Hmm. Good point. I need to figure out the frequency may be. I don’t tend to respond irritated but it will be in relation to his response to me as I often feel invalidated, dismissed, unheard or disbelieved. I’d say 3 weeks of the month I take a breath and walk away or state something calmly but at this point in my cycle my patience is very much diminished.

Thanks.

We are in a very bad phase at the minute to be honest. I’m very worn down. By that and other life events. It makes it harder to maintain composure.

Abuse is a pattern of behaviour in order to maintain power and control. It's very common for someone abusive to accuse their victim of being abusive.

I'm not really sure what you're trying to achieve here. You say you're in couples counselling and are holding a boundary around his abuse. Why?

Abusers don't change and their abuse tends to escalate. If you have children, they'll be effected by the atmosphere in the house, it also affects your mental health.

Going back to your earlier example, you surely expected him to question what you said as that's his MO, he questions everything. He then escalated the situation and turned it on you to lay into you.

That's your life OP, unless you choose to get out and that the life of your children. Stop counselling with him, abusers use it to further abuse.

It doesn't sound abusive, it just sounds like irritation that led to an argument. Not abnormal. It does sound as though he can't handle any kind of confrontation or what he perceives as negative emotions.

When I was in a long term relationship we used to get irritated by each other quite often. I didn't class it as abusive in any way, but we are not together now!

Also he shut down my attempt at an apology three times despite me saying ‘can I finish my sentence, I was going to apologise’. He also stormed out.

It was almost like I had to be the bad guy.

He sounds like an arsehole.

I understand. Thank you.

There is a little bit of hope still left I guess, that because he’s admitted it, witnessed by a counsellor and she is good. She doesn’t let it slide.

Also I need to get myself into a position to leave and given we will need to maintain some kind of communication forever (I never want DC to feel we can’t be in the same room together) we can then at least use counselling to manage the split and ongoing communication.

I have my own counselling to keep check in the process and if it’s the right thing for me. Life is hard bloody work at the moment but I’m not stuck. I’m working towards both outcomes whilst maintaining the zero tolerance to verbal abuse stance.

Just sounds like an argument to me.

Yeah. I guess he does. He certainly often is at the moment. I’m hanging on to the good I’ve seen in him and holding a boundary while I work towards better times together or apart.

He’s the one who sounds abusive

Yes. I’d say the same. It’s just got lots of ‘subtext’.

Yeah. He is. I’m holding a boundary around it and he doesn’t like it.

Thanks. Yes. Any hint at negativity and he’s triggered. Spot on.

He sounds insufferable 🙄 Definitely not abuse. I’ve come across a couple of men like this and they are draining.

Of course it’s not abuse! FFS, what planet is he on??
Sounds like classic DARVO to me

Yep I agree DARVO

Next time he uses that tone of irritation try reply "I feel invalidated the way you have just questioned my suggestion/decision"

He may verbally explode then without doubt it's out there as abuse.

I feel completely drained. That’s the right word. I’m constantly treading on eggshells.

I disagree that the counsellor is good if she's counselling a couple in an abusive relationship.

Just be careful and get advice from a domestic abuse organisation. If he's abusive, he won't like you challenging him and he won't like you leaving because it means he's lost control.

IMO the best way forward is to grey rock him so that the abuse doesn't escalate, not to challenge him. You're using up a lot of energy and headspace trying to manage his behaviour; disengage.

Focus your energy on leaving the relationship.

Very common for abusive men to call you abusive when you are trying and most likely failing to hold a boundary. My ex very famously tried to say I was abusing him when I asked that he stop seeing the OW now that we were trying to reconcile after his affair. I was trying to control him and he was infuriated by me. It is abusive and it’s called DAVRO.

That’s my take too but it’s so helpful to check my thinking.

It sounds like a normal argument to me, and who was 'louder' or 'more irritated' is irrelevant.

But he must in some way feel as though you can be abusive or he wouldn't keep bringing it up.

It's not nice to shut someone down in that way. If that's how they feel, it's important to talk about it.

He tried to raise it at counselling and it looks like he was shut down again, in which case it's a waste of time going.