I don't know what to think about this - Some parents need to be nannied by the state

[Another2Cats]

An article in yesterday's Times (share token below) with this title. I have thoughts both ways on this.

https://www.thetimes.com/article/d2c38325-db32-4e36-a213-6d84be59a2f0?shareToken=58b28456ef3641836cb2ba7f3f70c791

[redacted by MNHQ for copyright reasons]

There are schemes already in areas of deprivation for tooth brushing in the school day. It’s already happening. Social services won’t get involved in serious cases of neglect as they don’t have the manpower.

I don’t know why we are so scared of saying some parents are just shit and failing their children. Nothing to do with money. Some people just don’t want to parent.

It's one of the taboo areas on MN, you just aren't allowed to say it.

I was quite shocked when I was speaking to a colleague who was helped by the Sutton Trust, which is a charity for improving social mobility. She went to a secondary school in Plymouth and mentioned that careers advice from her teachers was purely aimed at "non-professional" careers. It was all about carpentry, hairdressing etc but there was no information at all about say law or accountancy - or indeed, becoming a teacher.

AIBU to think that teachers should be more aspirational for their pupils and not write them off because they go to a secondary modern in an inner city?

Note: I am not "dissing" being a hairdresser. If you are creative and like people it's a great career and very easy to combine with having a family, which is still sadly a consideration for women. And you may well make more money doing a trade than a profession. But schools should be promoting careers for all levels of academic attainment.

If parents don't have aspirations for their kids, their teachers should at least try.

@sharpclawedkitten I agree and have made that point myself on here.

We've encountered it our selves with our and kids education - lack of aspiration from schools and careers advice for all levels of ability.

Locally fewer than UK national figures kids go on to uni but they tend do other courses at local college most who do A-levels go onto uni. However new to college Y13 Psychology* * teacher that DD1 got started p/t meeting saying obviously university wasn't for DD1 despite her high predicted grade and watching DD1 wilt and look upset and embarrassed - and I piped excuse me - she planning on Uni and got back oh I assumed she'd go into workforce like you did - confused hmm pointed out we'd been to 4 well known and respected Uni between us both had undergraduate and post graduate degrees and DH was a lecturer at local uni. Apparently entire class went on to University - so no idea what the teacher was thinking. DD1 in her second year of her Uni course having sailed though first year with ease.

I think you may of meant to post on this thread https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5191132-to-think-social-mobility-is-impossible-for-working-class-lower-middle-class-kids?page=13&reply=139222696

Well they are and entitlement is off the scale. I grew up in poverty and my mum worked 3 cleaning jobs to put food on the table. We always had a tooth brush. As it turns out - it was my poverty and trauma induced childhood which made me see education as the way out.

Some people nowadays are just lazy, entitled and feckless. Unfortunately the innocent children then repeat the cycle.

The article that started this thread was about assumed knowledge - including education and careers knowledge . If parents don't know this information and not all school pass this information to pupils they are at a disadvantage to people with parents who do have this knowledge.

So sharpclawedkitten post is very apt to this thread - that schools aren't filling in blanks like my School in 90s to some extent as career advice and even libraires are much rarer.

In surveys and interviews, young people from disadvantaged homes lacked the basic grasp to navigate education and employment successfully. Most didn’t know graduates earn more than non-grads. A fifth didn’t think you should dress smartly for a job interview, or ask your interviewer questions.

This is from the article - my school did do some interview preparation - I don't think my kids have had any via their school - it's assumed they'll pick it up either from us as parents or via internet advice.

TBH School just busy with many other things these days and advice is more readily available via internet than back in mid 90s.

Fair enough, I've been getting notifications for both threads after commenting on them both so could easily imagine accidentally posting on the wrong one. They are both relatively similar and very interesting

They closed under austery policy of a new goverment. Children from income families who lived close to a sure start centre achived up to 3 grades higher in their GCSEs than those who didn’t.

From a BBC article “Among all children in the study, those who lived near a Sure Start centre performed better at GCSEs than those who lived further away, but the trend was more pronounced among those eligible for free school meals, and those from minority ethnic backgrounds.”

It also reduced the number of children being hospitalised.

What impact would have been enough for you to continue to keep them open?

@30percent @twistyizzy
Mandatory tooth brushing in school already exists in (at least some) Scottish schools in deprived areas. It’s pretty simple - kids each have a brush in the classroom and they take it in turn to go up in tables after coming from lunch. Yes there are definitely kids who do not know how to brush their teeth and it’s not happening at home and this is an opportunity to learn.

Both my parents were born before the NHS existed and they were particularly grateful for free or at any rate affordable dental treatment. They took us for check ups regularly and did everything the dentist said, which included brushing teeth twice a day and using fluoride toothpaste as soon as it became available. But then my parents were leading reasonably stable, secure lives and never had to decide between food and toothbrushes. Rather than have some children suffer totally needless tooth decay I think it's a great idea if all children brush their teeth at school, even if many will also do it at home anyway.

Some parents seem to struggle with what to many of the rest of us seem really simple things, like having a consistent routine in the mornings and at bedtime. If that's having an adverse effect on their children, somebody needs to step in and help the children - and ideally the parents as well. But breaking the cycle is surely a big objective so the next generation down do better.

Well, I'm quoting my own post here to tag something on which has come up on the thread.
A mandatory teeth brushing programme in school!

Are there parents out there who, as well as failing to toilet train their children, can't teach them to clean their teeth and the government's answer is to make schools do it.

For fuck's sake! Why are they not teaching their children to clean their teeth?

I can answer my own question. They are lazy, hopeless fuckers who expect the school to do everything for their child-literally wipe their arse, clean their teeth and feed them.

If a parent is that hopeless-and I don't care whatever excuse they come up with-none passes muster- then why are we allowing them to be in charge of a cactus, let alone a child.

The more you do for them, the less they will expect to do themselves.

They are not too poor to do any of these things. They are lazy, entitled arseholes who are a drain on society.

What should be done? The first thing is not to do it for them but to shame the fuckers. If they still won't do it, then place the children with someone competent not leave them with half wits who wouldn't look out of place in a Victorian drug den.

It is nothing to do with being poor but it is everything to do with being a hard necked grabber. There is NO excuse and instead of pandering to it, this underclass need a sharp shock.

My mother would have dropped dead if someone else had to show me how to wipe my arse and clean my teeth-dropped dead of shame.

That ship has sailed.

Talking about people who need the support not accepting it. I had to do two on-line parenting courses for DD's SEN. Several parents dropped out each time, the type who really needed to listen to the basics. Absolute shockers of parents, we were on the first couple of video meetings together.
It ended up just me and other parents who were also teachers being taught an idiots guide to parenting that we already knew.

I only knew from MN that maths would be a better course than business studies. My parents (worked full time, homeowners) thought school would teach me everything. Sadly my 80's secondary was useless compared to their 50's grammar.

Exactly

*just to clarify. I was the only non teacher on the parenting courses in the end. But it was everything I knew from books and on-line.

Personally I would rather my children had to submit to group teeth brushing at school if it means that children whose teeth would otherwise be left to rot get an opportunity to learn and develop good dental hygiene.

To be honest, even though I do brush my son's teeth, he hates it and it's always a struggle and doing it in a school setting with all his friends might make him think it's fun to brush your teeth, so I'm all for it.

My point is those parents who are prepared to let their children's teeth rot and let the state take responsibility for brushing their teeth are a fucking disgrace.

We as a society are a fucking disgrace that, in order not to rock the boat of these sub-par parents-we allow the state to step in.

Because of these sub par parents, the school now has to teach those poor children to brush their teeth and feed them, because these disgraceful objects won't do so, I would say what next-wipe the kids' arses but they're already doing that.

So great, that you are happy for this to go on but stop-think-if a parent won't do basic care-lets the school do it-what do you think is going on in those homes. Do you think it is all sweetness and light because let me inform you, it isn't.

Those poor children, in the hands of these half wits who can't toilet train or keep basic standards of hygiene for them , should be called out, exposed and disgraced-not saying oh dear, well never mind, the state will do it.

Would you want these parents in charge of your child for a year? of course you wouldn't. So why are we all pretending that they are ok to look after their own kids.

It doesn't cost money. They are feckless twats and they make my blood boil. Time to stop pandering to the cunts. The social services should be at the door, not smiling and demanding to know why they won't toilet train, won't feed and wont brush the teeth of their child.

A fucking iron fist in an iron glove is what's needed but of course won't happen.

Easy there. It’s well known that premies have weaker enamel (and require dental treatment earlier) than non-premies & for a number of complex reasons poor women are far more likely to have premature babies.

Are all these children premature then?

Of course not.

It's not complex at all and , as a rule of thumb, when someone says, 'it's complex' it's because it is dead simple but they won't accept it. It's a shite phrase and it's starting to lose its ability to shut a n unpalatable discussion down as you have tried to do .

It's not complex at all. It could not be simpler.

There is a sludge of lazy, unmotivated entitled grunts who think they should be given everything and take no responsibility.

Fine, who cares if they take no responsibility for themselves-who cares but we allow them to be responsible for a child and try to cover up the fact that we know we have done this by pretending their poverty means they won't brush their chlld's teeth, won't feed their child, won't read to their child and won't toilet train them.

Would you allow your child or even your pet to be in the care of these for a year? Well, of course you wouldn't.

So why are we, as a society, pretending it is linked to money (another argument that won't stand up) and making the state take responsibility.

If a parent isn't capable of providing toast for breakfast, sends their child to school unwashed and un toilet trained, unable to use cutlery, unable to use basic manners like 'please' and 'thank you'-then why are we allowing them to have charge of these poor children.

Do you think that's acceptable? I don't. I wouldn't let them near my dog and nor, if you were honest, would you.

Again, an iron fist in an iron glove is what's needed. No excuses-not when it comes to children.

Instead, much wants more and they become even more entitled. I imagine this will continue because it's easier than dealing with these absolute disgraceful scrotes who we allow to look after (hah!) precious children.

We don't have enough foster families and potential adopters to look after all these children you'd remove from their birth parents. We certainly don't have enough trained experienced social workers to identify them. It would need an enormous injection of money to tackle this. I happen to think it's very short-sighted not intervene and try to improve life for all children, but good luck persuading the general public to pay more tax to fund it.

It's dreadful. For some parents the more help you offer the less they feel they need to do. I've been asked by parents to potty train their children (reception age, no SEN). We've arranged parenting courses for parents who just don't bother. It's sad.

So why are we, as a society, pretending it is linked to money (another argument that won't stand up) and making the state take responsibility.

@JaneEyreLaughing But of course it’s linked to money. The schools with free brushing are those in deprived areas. The schools with higher numbers of kids coming in not potty trained, or unable to use cutlery, are those in deprived areas. The schools with more kids requiring 1-1 support and kids with aggression are in deprived areas. That’s not to say that all poor parents are bad parents, that’s not what I’m saying at all. Or that all rich parents are good parents. But it’s really disingenuous to say that poverty isn’t linked with a whole host of social problems, and the reasons why are quite obvious if you think about them.

I can do more than think about them.
I am the child of two lowly paid unqualified factory workers with too many children and not enough money.

How dare you stand up on your hind legs to imply that they-and others like them-could not rear their children.

I and my siblings were toilet trained by the time we went to school, could use cutlery, could read, could brush our teeth and know how to say please and thank you. We were also fed, by our parents not by some free breakfast club because they could afford a loaf of bread.

So fuck off with your casting aspersions on those who do not have enough cash-saying they are the ones who drag up their kids. Fuck right off with your insulting drivel.

You may not like it but poor people are just as capable as teaching their child to wipe their arse and brush their teeth as anyone else.

Of course you know that fine well, as does everyone.

But far easier to say it it a problem of money, let's throw more at it than admitting the truth,

The truth is this: there are a lazy entitled grabbing underclass out there with no respect for themselves. if some other mug-the state- will take on the responsibility of doing what they should be doing, then they are apt to let them crack on.

Money won't solve this. What will solve it is a concerted effort to shame these shits and to ask ourselves the uncomfortable question- would we let this underclass look after our child or dog or Swiss cheese plant for a year?

If you answer, 'no' then why do you think your child is more important than the unfortunate child that has to call these triffids a parent.

So stop insulting those with no money but who would not dream of having the state teach their child to wipe their arse or brush their teeth. They have their pride.

You are talking about a very different creature- a drain on society who will not help themselves, their children or anyone while there is some other mug to do it for them.

Many people on this board will have had poor parents or grandparents or great grand-parents. You spit on them all by saying that lack of money is what leads to the state doing the parents' job. How dare you.

Anyway, you crack on. The poor will crack on and the shits you defend will piss themselves laughing at you and, although I despise them, I join in their laughter at you.