To think social mobility is impossible for working class /lower middle class kids?

[Cheeriosay]

And if it is possible how?! I feel the prospect of social mobility is at an all time low for teens/young adults due to the educational crisis in schools, cost of living crisis & lack of opportunity to move up in the world. This was relatively easy years ago either through education, marriage (or both).. Now it's not going to be as easy for teens & young adults who want to climb the social ladder.
I'm putting it bluntly, I'm sure some posters will be on soon to say these teens should know their place & not be getting ideas above their station but sod that!

Excellent video. Thanks for sharing

There's nothing with any of those things. They're a way in. It's literally something to build some equity up and move on. No one starts with 3 bed semi.

Are you deliberately being obtuse? What is a FTB going to do some with land? How will they raise funds to pay cash for a property at auction? Or qualify for a retirement property?

Two friends from sons class at school aged 23 both have bought houses this year. Both did apprenticeships, staying home. Now doing very well. Son did a degree, now a masters, he's years away from owning.

@BalletCat I asked how many people in your circle fit into that bracket? If you do know people in those circumstances then you will be aware that many come from a similar narrow background which is the point about social mobility. If you don’t have the exposure to it then you don’t know about it.

But it's a tiny percentage of parents who had that choice anyway. It's not just about money. Most private schools are selective. Yes, some will take SEN, but only to a point. The state system is struggling with non-verbal children still needing personal care beyond nursery that the private schools won't touch. In some areas, the only private schools available don't accept any children who don't meet a certain educational standard, ruling out not only many children with high educational needs, but also children who are struggling academically, but might do better in a setting with smaller class sizes.

Over 90% of children are at State schools. That tells me the vast majority didn't have this choice in the first place. There seems to be this idea that it's a vast number of children who had access to private education, but now won't have that. It really isn't.

And house prices are important because they often put you in the “catchments” for the best state schools. My old primary school was very mixed when I was a dc all those yrs ago, but the house prices are now pretty prohibitive so it’s a completely different demographic. My dc are at an excellent primary which has some of the best results in the country. In part because so many parents tutor their dc for certain secondaries. It’s about opportunity & access & many people aren’t even aware what is out there.

Do you seriously think that the problem with social mobility is due to the new tax on private schools?

Private schools serve a tiny percentage of the population and have always been out of reach for the majority of families. Nothing has changed there.

MN seems to be obsessed with the private school issue. It's bizarre.

All I can say is I hope the class snobbery has improved since I graduated in the early 90s, because at the time it was as big a barrier (certainly for me) as any of the economic factors. I grew up in the north, working-class background, moved to the Home Counties a couple of years after graduation. A lot of people treated me like I kept coal in the bath because of my accent, which didn't exactly inspire career confidence or encourage me to set my sights high. I also have a sneaky suspicion that my accent caused me to be perceived as less of a good fit in a few of the job interviews I had and didn't get.

Yes it definitely is harder now. The Marmot report is a good read on this. It will make you angry though.

If partner and I were in similar earning salaries/professions 20 years ago we would have a much better lifestyle now and be homeowners. We are just working for nothing really, just to survive. It feels like utter stagnation and is depressing, but I am thankful we have what we have.

It does impact my eldest son as he has learnt very young that working doesn't pay off and life isn't fair. It's a shit thing to learn as he's not even 10 yet, but at least he won't fall into the trap of being naive like we have. I think he realises he has to make smart choices and start working towards them young. Partner and I met in late 20s and 30s and it was already too late for us to build a decent life together due to house price inflation. How wrong is that?

My mum grew up in a caravan. Her first buy was shared ownership because she couldn't afford to buy on her own, but she owns her house on her own now because it was her way in, not where she stayed.

Auction isn't the only option to first time buyers who said it was?

Obviously a first time buyer has no use for a piece of land, but none of those listings were bare patches of land, they were something to live in.

My grandparents rented all their lives then bought a retirement home with their lifetime savings because it was actually less likely than it now at the end of the second world war that poor people were able to be socially mobile and from poverty to property ownership. Do they not count as first time buyers?

Help to buy schemes help a lot of first time buyers and they didn't exist a few decades ago, no one helped my grandparents. They often tell stories of how people used to buy house shares with friends then sell them after a few years of building equity to get their house deposits because it was impossible to get a deposit or a mortgage on working class wages in the sixties.

Ultimately no one is owed property ownership. If you want to buy something and have no money given to you from family you have to save up and do it in a cheap way because it's something you want, not a right and you can't expect it to just fall in to your lap. Many people will rent their whole lives and live pleasant lives as was the norm for generations. All the older people I know had fuck all opportunities compared to what my generation have, none of them were able to achieve things poor people can achieve today.

A quick look on Zoopla shows there are currently over 3000 properties for sale in England for under 50k, mostly in the Midland and northern cities. Of course it's not easy but the bottom of the ladder is still there for people who want a starting block.

You posted the above but there aren’t 3000 properties under 50k that are suitable for FTBs to use as a first rung on the property ladder which was my point.

Social mobility isn't defined as making it from the 99% into the 1%. It's about moving from poverty to security, council housing to home ownership, struggling to eat to nice food every evening, minimum wage jobs to professional jobs. If you live and work with people who had vastly different childhoods to you but you have ended up in the same place, you have achieved social mobility.

I don't know any millionaires. We all know that millionaires are a narrow portion of society most people have to be born into. But social mobility is not about being a millionaire, it's about moving up levels in society and it is very achievable.

I'm working class as are all my family and friends, and everyone aside from me is a homeowner. We live in an affordable town in the midlands though. Where you live is a big factor.

I've no doubt that my DS will be able to buy a home if he wants, as I'll let him live at home for as long as necessary to save up and you can buy a property here on a single salary. My mum earns £27k and is single and a homeowner, albeit she had a 50% deposit. But you can get a 3 bed for £150k here.

The problem with discussions about grammar schools is that it concentrates on the minority who were able to get in. The 80% who went to secondary modern were thrown on the scrapheap at 11, given a substandard education, not allowed to sit O Levels, taught woodwork and typing and told to be on their way. Yes, some of those boys left school at 14 and are now making fortunes in trades and some people went back to education as adults and gained qualifications, but many were denied an education, didnt see any value in it, were demotivated and brought their children and grandchildren up to see no value or point in education, and we can see that continuing today. Girls were expected to do poorly paid work until they had children. Everyone thinks their kid would be one of the 20% but no one is bothered about the 80% under the grammar system. There are comprehensive in poor areas who have genuinely got poor working class kids and educated them well and have high expectations of all the children. Grammar schools are not the answer.

That’s very sad. Both my mother and uncle were from a northern mining town. Both become senior corporate professionals in London. They went to local non grammers and went to what are now Russell group universities. This was in the early seventies. People did this then. I am not sure what changed to make it more difficult.

sharpclawedkitten, the old boy notwork or it's not what you know but who you know!!

Exactly, both my parents had to leave school at 16, no chance of going to uni, it just wasn't an option. My Dad did end up going to uni later after working for several years to save up, whilst my mum worked to support them. There were no handouts.
My Dads work then loaned them a house deposit which they took back out of his salary, for a house they nearly lost due to 20% interest rates coming in. My Dad had to take a job in the UAE to earn enough to pay it after being made redundant, my mum brought us up on her own for first few years. We didn't have a phone as couldn't afford it. It definitely wasn't all sunshine and roses back then, any opportunities were hard earnt.

I can't tell if you're obtuse or stupid either tbh. Bitter about something certainly.

What is your obsession with millionaires on a post about social mobility if that's not relevant?

I think my posts have been completely clear, it’s not my fault you can’t understand them. I’m not the one writing nonsensical posts & Im not the only one who has highlighted that you are misunderstanding things.

Bitter about something certainly.

Thank you for demonstrating what I mean. Where have I inferred I was bitter? And what am I bitter about?

What is your obsession with millionaires

Another great example, perhaps Google the word obsession as you are using it incorrectly.

Your example feels like a unicorn area for house prices.

My partner bought his first one bed flat for £40k in the 90s on a wage just over half of that. It’s now on the market at £350k.

If you can tell me how someone can buy that on a student loan I’d be interested to hear it.

I still think one of the biggest barriers is that there's no place for the academically average to start now. When my mum left school at sixteen, she went into nursing at first. You can't get near nursing now without an expensive degree requiring a level of academic achievement.

When I started work, my first job was in a nursing home as a carer. At that point, the trained nurses there were a mix of registered general and state enrolled. State enrolled nurses had taken a less academic route, which is now not available.

My stepfather left school at 15 with no qualifications. He started his working life as a milkman and made his way up to milk transport management, despite struggling with reading and writing. I don't think this sort of in-work mobility is there now.

Even the much discussed 'trades' which used to be a great route to good jobs for the less academic but more practical are drowning in a sea of academic courses rather than being taken on as a labourer and learning on the job.

There are fewer and fewer entry-level jobs with progression options available to those without the exam results. Much has been made of easier exams and 'mickey mouse' degrees, but as the pool of jobs for the masses which provide enough income to support renting/owning a home continues to shrink, what are young people supposed to do? It's not so much that they expect to walk into higher level positions as that they don't have much option.

Where your parents live also has a big impact as well paid jobs are so concentrated London.

If your parents live in London you can get a well paid job and save up. But bad luck if they live elsewhere. You'll have to choose between a poorly paid job or eyewatering rent in London and never being able to save.

@ObelixtheGaul I agree. My first graduate job wanted a degree in anything. None of the management had degrees & then people younger than me needed to have degrees in certain subjects. People say don’t go to uni but many jobs now require degrees even if just for a CV sifting purpose. And some of the apprenticeships for tradespeople pay a pittance these days.