Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To refuse to teach this lesson

113 replies

cantthinkofausername26 · 19/10/2024 08:13

Secondary teacher of a practical subject. Maximum amount of students doing practical at one time has always been 16. Suddenly this term it has increased to 25! Boys school so big kids, year 10.
Head of department has decided this particular practical should be taught. I feel it is dangerous. Multiple hazards, too many kids, accident waiting to happen,
AIBU to say I'm not doing it. WHEN an accident happens I will be held accountable as class teacher.

OP posts:
SauvignonBlonk · 19/10/2024 08:16

Has an updated risk assessment been done? Will there be additional staff?

Newbutoldfather · 19/10/2024 08:16

It is a tough one.

As a teacher, ultimately you are in charge in the classroom and have to make your own decision. OTOH, without knowing the details, it is hard to know whether other teachers could do it safely with 25 pupils.

Are there any other ways of doing it? Maybe, do it over 2 lessons, with half the class doing the practical and the other half doing the background written work, and swap over the next class?

TwinklyAmberOrca · 19/10/2024 08:19

I have a huge A Level class and have to split some practicals due to safety and equipment.

I do the practical with half then the other half do exam Qs with a written out solution to check their answers, then the following lesson we swap.

H&S comes first so ask for the risk assessment to be updated.

Regulus · 19/10/2024 08:20

It isn't a tough one

It doesn't matter if someone else can deliver it safely.

If you do not feel it is safe then you must say something.

You would be held responsible if something went wrong.

I agree about the risk assessment, update it and then use it to support your refusal.

Regulus · 19/10/2024 08:21

Sorry the tone in that post wasn't the tone I intended.

I think you are right to push back.

Ihatelittlefriendsusan · 19/10/2024 08:26

It's hard to judge without knowing what the practical entails.

Lovetotravel123 · 19/10/2024 08:47

Is there a compliance person in your school? If so, I would consult them and then the ball is in their court.

ThatCalmHelper · 19/10/2024 08:48

cantthinkofausername26 · 19/10/2024 08:13

Secondary teacher of a practical subject. Maximum amount of students doing practical at one time has always been 16. Suddenly this term it has increased to 25! Boys school so big kids, year 10.
Head of department has decided this particular practical should be taught. I feel it is dangerous. Multiple hazards, too many kids, accident waiting to happen,
AIBU to say I'm not doing it. WHEN an accident happens I will be held accountable as class teacher.

I'm a DT teacher, so well used to teaching in a hazardous environment with up to 30, sometimes more in the room.

Without knowing what activity you are doing its hard to know what to say, but there are generally ways to mitigate the hazard.

For example, pewter casting, involving heating pewter to its molten state and pouring off into a mould, when cooled the edges have to be filed - I have 4 brazing bays and crucibles, so I position myself with those 4 bays, supervising 4 pupils working with molten metal - the others, filing and hand polishing can be left alone as there is naff all hazard in that as long has they have goggles on - so in effect, out of 30, I only have to concentrate on 4 doing the most hazardous activity - the others are doing non hazardous work or getting their paperwork up to date...

Tell us your activity and see if we can come up with a plan.

Icedlatteplease · 19/10/2024 08:49

Are you in a union? Have you contacted the union?

Sugargliderwombat · 19/10/2024 08:51

I would ask for a risk assessment that they have signed at the very least.

GoldenPheasant · 19/10/2024 09:00

Ask if they've OK'd this with the school's insurance company.

ThatCalmHelper · 19/10/2024 09:04

Sugargliderwombat · 19/10/2024 08:51

I would ask for a risk assessment that they have signed at the very least.

The risk assessment is probably a generic for the activity, most schools use CLEAPPS risk assessments, so probably of little value, except identifying the most likely point of trouble.

It all depends on the practical, unless we know what it is it's impossible to give any proper suggestions. In my experience anything is possible (within reason!) you just have to isolate the hazard, look at how you are mitigating it and limit if needs be the number of pupils actively engaged in the high risk task (this often self limits due to machine numbers in a workshop say) and organise something for the others to get on with that is very low risk and that will hold their attention / be meaningful, which effectively takes your number from, as say in my previous example 30 to 4.

If there is a technician to TA, make use of them to keep an eye on the low/no risk portion of the activity.

Regulus · 19/10/2024 09:04

ThatCalmHelper · 19/10/2024 08:48

I'm a DT teacher, so well used to teaching in a hazardous environment with up to 30, sometimes more in the room.

Without knowing what activity you are doing its hard to know what to say, but there are generally ways to mitigate the hazard.

For example, pewter casting, involving heating pewter to its molten state and pouring off into a mould, when cooled the edges have to be filed - I have 4 brazing bays and crucibles, so I position myself with those 4 bays, supervising 4 pupils working with molten metal - the others, filing and hand polishing can be left alone as there is naff all hazard in that as long has they have goggles on - so in effect, out of 30, I only have to concentrate on 4 doing the most hazardous activity - the others are doing non hazardous work or getting their paperwork up to date...

Tell us your activity and see if we can come up with a plan.

I find this a little patronising.

She says 'this particular practical' so she evidently has managed to adapt to 25 but the risks here are too great. There is no way we can begin to risk assess without actually being there.

ThatCalmHelper · 19/10/2024 09:09

Regulus · 19/10/2024 09:04

I find this a little patronising.

She says 'this particular practical' so she evidently has managed to adapt to 25 but the risks here are too great. There is no way we can begin to risk assess without actually being there.

Without knowing what the practical is, we can't know the risks involved, if they can be mitigated etc. - maybe you can't make it safe for 25 to do at once, but you can 15, so you could in two groups of 12 and 13, and then can you build a lesson plan to give a safe task to the other half, can you scare up someone to supervise the other half, in the room, or in another room at the same time.

If the OP gives a bit more info, likely a bit of help can be given putting together a plan, or if it really is not possible a reasoned argument to not do the activity - ie the risk of an accident from x happening is too great to mitigate because of y etc..

A lot of risk assessment in science and tech in schools is done by people who are not there, but work for the likes of CLEAPPS and DATA - because a lot of the facilities and risk factors are generic.

cantthinkofausername26 · 19/10/2024 09:13

Newbutoldfather · 19/10/2024 08:16

It is a tough one.

As a teacher, ultimately you are in charge in the classroom and have to make your own decision. OTOH, without knowing the details, it is hard to know whether other teachers could do it safely with 25 pupils.

Are there any other ways of doing it? Maybe, do it over 2 lessons, with half the class doing the practical and the other half doing the background written work, and swap over the next class?

This is what I have suggest but HOD says no,

OP posts:
Roastiesarethebestbit · 19/10/2024 09:13

It’s hard to comment helpfully without knowing more detail. Most tech/science teachers will be well used to teaching classes of 25. But I agree it can be hard when classes increase in size and your usual room is more crowded and there is insufficient equipment. An increase of 9 students is significant. Classes have increased from 25 to 30 in my school this year and it has involved a rethink in how some practical lessons are organised, including planning how to use technicians and TAs optimally. But not doing the practicals would not be an option.

cantthinkofausername26 · 19/10/2024 09:17

Thank you for the comments. With respect, I am not asking if this particular practical is safe or not, I am asking if I am being unreasonable by going against the instructions of my HOD. I would like to split the class but HOD says no. I have support staff but still think it's unsafe.

OP posts:
MrsHamlet · 19/10/2024 09:19

No you are not being unreasonable, and you should discuss it with your union.

Does your hod have experience of teaching this practical?

ThatCalmHelper · 19/10/2024 09:19

cantthinkofausername26 · 19/10/2024 09:17

Thank you for the comments. With respect, I am not asking if this particular practical is safe or not, I am asking if I am being unreasonable by going against the instructions of my HOD. I would like to split the class but HOD says no. I have support staff but still think it's unsafe.

I understand that, and different people have their own tolerance for risk - but without knowing what the practical is it is difficult to help you to put a reasonable argument back to your HOD outlining your concerns.

If of a Saturday morning you have concerns, you are certainly not being unreasonable to put them to your HOD.

Diomi · 19/10/2024 09:20

ThatCalmHelper · 19/10/2024 08:48

I'm a DT teacher, so well used to teaching in a hazardous environment with up to 30, sometimes more in the room.

Without knowing what activity you are doing its hard to know what to say, but there are generally ways to mitigate the hazard.

For example, pewter casting, involving heating pewter to its molten state and pouring off into a mould, when cooled the edges have to be filed - I have 4 brazing bays and crucibles, so I position myself with those 4 bays, supervising 4 pupils working with molten metal - the others, filing and hand polishing can be left alone as there is naff all hazard in that as long has they have goggles on - so in effect, out of 30, I only have to concentrate on 4 doing the most hazardous activity - the others are doing non hazardous work or getting their paperwork up to date...

Tell us your activity and see if we can come up with a plan.

In England and Wales there are very clear guidelines on the class sizes for DT workshops. I think it is around 20. All the schools I have worked in have taken this seriously and timetabled accordingly.

OP, If you don’t feel safe, then don’t do it. You could suggest splitting the class and doing it over 2 lessons. I know that means you need the other half in another room with someone to supervise them but schools manage to organise cover so it isn’t beyond the realms of possibility. Put your concerns in an email, not just verbally, and give some possible solutions rather than just refusing.

Chillisintheair · 19/10/2024 09:22

Don’t just go against the HOD. You need to speak to your regional union rep. For now can you do a non practical work linked to it.

Mischance · 19/10/2024 09:22

Do your own written risk assessment based on the group as a whole and the group split in two. Present this in written form and keep copies so that you have a record of your professional opinion about the situation. At the very least you have a defence should the worst happen and you have to face the music.

You could send the risk assessment to the governing board.

ThatCalmHelper · 19/10/2024 09:22

MrsHamlet · 19/10/2024 09:19

No you are not being unreasonable, and you should discuss it with your union.

Does your hod have experience of teaching this practical?

Bit OTT to run straight to the union, better to have a reasoned discussion with the HOD, I'm an HOD in DT, I have one teacher who won't do the brazing practical, it makes her nervous, this is fine with me, I do that lesson for her, its good for the pupils to get a different face for an hour and a half, and she does my woodwork lesson. (least that's how it sits this year)

Roastiesarethebestbit · 19/10/2024 09:23

If your have discussed it with your HOD and they have instructed you to go ahead then that’s what you need to do. If at any point in the lesson you feel that it has become too unsafe to continue, then you stop the lesson.

You talk about splitting the class. Was your intention for half the class to remain under
your supervision, but doing theory work or were you hoping for them to be elsewhere supervised by somebody else? If the former, then personally I would just have gone ahead and done that, I wouldn’t even have consulted my HOD!

WigglyVonWaggly · 19/10/2024 09:24

Make sure you have a paper trail about your concerns on this. Discuss in emails.

Swipe left for the next trending thread