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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To refuse to teach this lesson

113 replies

cantthinkofausername26 · 19/10/2024 08:13

Secondary teacher of a practical subject. Maximum amount of students doing practical at one time has always been 16. Suddenly this term it has increased to 25! Boys school so big kids, year 10.
Head of department has decided this particular practical should be taught. I feel it is dangerous. Multiple hazards, too many kids, accident waiting to happen,
AIBU to say I'm not doing it. WHEN an accident happens I will be held accountable as class teacher.

OP posts:
bergamotorange · 19/10/2024 16:06

cantthinkofausername26 · 19/10/2024 09:28

@ThatCalmHelper if only all HODs were as reasonable as you!

So for context. It's a food lesson. We have enough cookers for 2 kids to share one, but one has to be shared between 3. The practical requires 3 pans per kid so obviously not doable. Other teacher suggested using one pan twice so two pans per kid. That's 25 boiling pots of water, 25 frying pans with chicken and bacon. There's some areas of the room that are very narrow, the boys are big now, it's claustrophobic. The classroom is designed for 16 kids. It just seems like too much going on at once to be safe. 3 severe SEND kids (with LSA) at least 4 with adhd and behavioural issues.

Have you put all of this in writing? The key issue is the room is designed for 16 and there is not space.

I would firstly seek advice from the union.

If not in the union, put it all in writing and say you do not feel able to teach the lesson as it is just too dangerous and copy in the person above your HOD?

bergamotorange · 19/10/2024 16:08

beccahamlet · 19/10/2024 16:00

Off topic. I don't mean this in a smart Alec way, but it's 'number' of students - not amount of students. 'Students' is a countable noun. Amount is for uncountable nouns-water, cheese, happiness.

Off topic. I don't mean this in a smart Alec way but correcting people like this is really bad manners.

If you need help with general etiquette on correcting people, the general rule is 'don't'.

JustAVeryWeirdWoman · 19/10/2024 16:10

YANBU. It does sound like an unsafe situation. Cooking can be a hazardous activity. I think you are correct to refuse. As others have said, make all objections in writing but stand your ground.

If something bad does happen, you will be 100% blamed by leadership. Nobody will care that you were pushed into it by them, they will say: "Well, can't they think by themselves? If your boss tells you to jump from a building would you do it?" And parents of any injured child would definitely direct their ire at you in first instance. So don't let them make you their lighting rod for poor management.

Jojimoji · 19/10/2024 16:11

From one experienced teacher to another ( over 30 years here)
if you feel that the risks are too big then you are not being unreasonable to refuse to give this lesson in these circumstances.
HOD , SLT, HT and whoever else can say what they like- but as you've said, at the end of the day if anything at all goes wrong it's YOU in the firing line.

I know it's difficult, been there and bought the t- shirt myself, but I hope you can stand your ground.

ilovesooty · 19/10/2024 16:17

bergamotorange · 19/10/2024 16:08

Off topic. I don't mean this in a smart Alec way but correcting people like this is really bad manners.

If you need help with general etiquette on correcting people, the general rule is 'don't'.

Agreed.

LongLiveTheLego · 19/10/2024 16:22

cantthinkofausername26 · 19/10/2024 15:22

Thanks for your comments. I am a very experienced teacher. If there was another way around this eg recipe alterations, working in pairs etc I would have done it. I don't need help with planning my lesson. I need to know if it is unreasonable of me to say I'm not doing this lesson as I don't think it's safe.

Maybe you should add to your experience by learning how to improve your terminology. Using the description "SEND kids" is not acceptable.

Mostlyoblivious · 19/10/2024 16:25

cantthinkofausername26 · 19/10/2024 09:13

This is what I have suggest but HOD says no,

Then suggest that the HoD trials it the way they envision and plan from there.

As others have said, it’s your lesson and you have deemed it unsafe. It will be ultimately on you if anything happens, as you have already said. Would it be worth a chat with your union rep about this one for some guidance?

Zebedee999 · 19/10/2024 16:26

Regulus · 19/10/2024 09:04

I find this a little patronising.

She says 'this particular practical' so she evidently has managed to adapt to 25 but the risks here are too great. There is no way we can begin to risk assess without actually being there.

ThatCalmHelper was (as per her name!) simply trying to suggest that solutions can be found if more information is shared.
But it is easier to simply not offer help or practical ideas and bleat about getting the unions in etc as others have done.
@ThatCalmHelper is the type of person I'd want on my team every day of the week.

ilovesooty · 19/10/2024 16:27

LongLiveTheLego · 19/10/2024 16:22

Maybe you should add to your experience by learning how to improve your terminology. Using the description "SEND kids" is not acceptable.

FFS. You could point that out without being snarky and turning it into a personal attack.

ilovesooty · 19/10/2024 16:30

Zebedee999 · 19/10/2024 16:26

ThatCalmHelper was (as per her name!) simply trying to suggest that solutions can be found if more information is shared.
But it is easier to simply not offer help or practical ideas and bleat about getting the unions in etc as others have done.
@ThatCalmHelper is the type of person I'd want on my team every day of the week.

I agree with you about @ThatCalmHelper but why is it "bleating" to suggest getting some union advice?

TheSnootiestFox · 19/10/2024 16:30

When a colleague and I were in this position, we just turned Food Tech into virtually a non cook subject until KS4. It was absolutely crackers. Also, I assume that if your class sizes were reduced there'd be a knock on effect somewhere in the timetable? Your HOD needs to let you split the practical up if it's so vital that you do that specific dish!

Zebedee999 · 19/10/2024 16:36

ilovesooty · 19/10/2024 16:30

I agree with you about @ThatCalmHelper but why is it "bleating" to suggest getting some union advice?

Because that should be a last resort if you have tried to resolve the issue. Not a first resort for every obstacle you face at work.

ilovesooty · 19/10/2024 16:49

Zebedee999 · 19/10/2024 16:36

Because that should be a last resort if you have tried to resolve the issue. Not a first resort for every obstacle you face at work.

Sometimes it's helpful to get union advice at an early stage
At this point the OP is wondering if she's within her rights to refuse to teach the lesson. There's a distinction between seeking advice and requesting direct union involvement.

Tomorrowisyesterday · 19/10/2024 17:04

Zebedee999 · 19/10/2024 16:36

Because that should be a last resort if you have tried to resolve the issue. Not a first resort for every obstacle you face at work.

What do you think union reps are? The Spanish Inquisition? They are a sounding board for people like the OP to get advice about the best next steps for them, and support if required.

cantthinkofausername26 · 19/10/2024 17:11

Invisimamma · 19/10/2024 15:43

Yanbu. I'm not a teacher op but I am a parent of a 13yr old boy and I would be really unhappy with this set-up. Knowing an experienced class teacher had flagged safety concerns and being told to forge ahead anyway with no mitigations, is shocking.

I'd much rather you split the lesson and do half and half and it took longer than put kids at risk of injury. It's also an incredibly stressful situation for you to be put in even if nothing goes wrong.

I'm in Scotland and it's not allowed here to have more than 20 pupils in a practical lesson. This is clearly set out contractually.

I hear you. Im a parent too and that's how I would feel. Im actually considering leaving. I don't want to be put in this position but the HOD is inexperienced and also isn't a good specialist. To be Frank she knows nothing about the subject. It's a recipe for disaster... excuse the pun!

OP posts:
cantthinkofausername26 · 19/10/2024 17:12

Food specialist I meant!

OP posts:
MrsHamlet · 19/10/2024 17:13

Zebedee999 · 19/10/2024 16:36

Because that should be a last resort if you have tried to resolve the issue. Not a first resort for every obstacle you face at work.

Nonsense. Unions are made up of impartial, trained advisors.

cantthinkofausername26 · 19/10/2024 17:16

@LongLiveTheLego err why isn't it acceptable? Been in a school lately? We're not all slaves to PC bullshit. In fact, our primary concern is the children, not ridiculous people getting upset by the use of terminology. Get a hobby.

OP posts:
AutumnLeaves24 · 19/10/2024 17:16

No it's really not.

the experienced teacher says it's not safe, so something needs to be done.

half the class do it at a time & the HM finds someone to take the other half the class.

@cantthinkofausername26 don't do it until YOU are happy it's safe to do so.

cantthinkofausername26 · 19/10/2024 17:17

@bergamotorange no one cares

OP posts:
Polkad · 19/10/2024 17:20

OP, create a paper trail, explaining clearly your health and safety concerns and examples of what accidents could happen.
Find out from your union what your position is.
Check with ACAS too.
Very easy to push you to do this, but if an accident happens it will be on your head.
I could well imagine an accident in such a crowded situation.
I would be very unhappy as a parent.
You need to ask who will be responsible in the case of a serious life changing accident?
A pot of boiling water for example.

You need to protect yourself.

beccahamlet · 19/10/2024 17:21

bergamotorange · 19/10/2024 16:08

Off topic. I don't mean this in a smart Alec way but correcting people like this is really bad manners.

If you need help with general etiquette on correcting people, the general rule is 'don't'.

I wouldn't normally dream of correcting people, but I feel that teachers should use correct grammar.

Sugarbeaches · 19/10/2024 17:27

beccahamlet · 19/10/2024 17:21

I wouldn't normally dream of correcting people, but I feel that teachers should use correct grammar.

Oh bore off

cantthinkofausername26 · 19/10/2024 17:28

Thank you so much all who have given advice and made useful comments. I don't know why every post on MN attracts the smart arses who have nothing constructive to say but just come to be nasty or make shitty comments for the sake of it. It really is disappointing that these people feel the need. I haven't the time for such bullshit so will be going now. Thanks

OP posts:
HEMole · 19/10/2024 17:29

It's hard to judge without knowing what the practical entails.

You still wouldn't be able to judge. It's up to the school's fire safety officer. It's not something people on here can decide on.

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