To feel that remote working should be a right, not a privilege?

[AlertBird]

With the advances in technology, it seems outdated that so many companies still require employees to come into the office for jobs that could easily be done remotely. AIBU to think that, for jobs where possible, remote working should be a right, not a privilege? It could help with work-life balance and reduce stress, but a lot of employers seem stuck in their old ways of thinking.

Countries around the world have different thresholds for taxation and social security, so if you spend certain numbers of days in a country you may need to pay local taxes and social security levies. Canada for example require employers to set up a local payroll.
If you are out of the UK for more than a certain number of nights then you also fall outside UK taxation thresholds and employers are not always set up to manage this complexity.

Working from home is a privilege though - I think of all my kids’ cohort stuck in a room in a shared house balancing their laptops on ironing boards during lockdown. It was miserable for them and they totally missed out on important interactions with colleagues, learning the job by osmosis, socialising over lunches al desko etc etc

people who want working from home as the default will be those with a space to work from comfortably and so already relatively privileged

People legally employed in one country and resident in another are often liable for tax in both jurisdictions. It's an enormous legal and tax headache. You can't just move country and live somewhere else if you are legally employed in the UK.

I was just quoting the poster who said it wouldn't be possible to WFH for nurses, Police etc.

Which it can be. And disability plays no part in that as there are jobs that can be WFH. Though like I said, it can benefit disabled employees.

That's fine. She was quoting someone else though. And it was the whole conversation I was replying to not just the one quote.
I agree work from home can benefit disabled employees. But it can't be an automatic right just because you're disabled. It can however be a right to ask. But the business has the right to say no.
It was the automatic right bit I was disagreeing with. Not that it can be hugely beneficial in certain jobs.

I work in IT and I've been able to work from home for over a quarter of a century, because I've had to be part of 24/7 on-call rotas. My current role is hybrid, with one day a week in the office. I grew up on a farm, so I grew up with WFH - if Dad wasn't doing office work, he was in walking distance (up to an hour walking, though.) We knew from a young age thst if the office door was shut, we were not to interrupt unless it was an emergency like the cows had got out.

Having that flexibility of being able to work from home is great - I've been able to work from home when my car has been in for a service or I've had someone round to look at the boiler. I have also upset an Amazon delivery guy, which was waving through the window, because I refused to interrupt the work call I was on.

What I appreciate more than being able to WFH is flexibility around start times. In my previous role, it was an hour to the office if I had to be there by 9am, but about 25 minutes if I could wait till 10am - which meant I usually left after the evening rush hour, too. Not having to be in dead on time makes the commute far less stressful, even if there's a blockage or something.

Currently, my office is an hour away. It's fine once a week, but I would find it stressful to do it every day, so if this job was 100% office-based, I probably wouldn't have applied. However, my first week was in the office, because I had to pick up kit, get my pass sorted, and meet people, as well as be introduced to all the different systems. It could have been done remotely, but would have taken longer.

Meeting colleagues face-to-face is helpful. Even home-based employees may be invited to the office once or twice a year. In my previous job, we were an international department, so I didn't meet everyone to start with. If you're in different countries, it doesn't matter if people are in the office or WFH, as long as their network connection is good. If people WFH, I think it's important to have cameras on for meetings (there can be times when network bandwidth won't manage that, but it's increasingly rare that that is do, even if people live in rural areas.) It's also helpful to have a chat channel on Teams or Slack or whatever you use - people sharing the odd joke or amusing anecdote about their day does help with bonding. Ours can be mostly silent for a couple of days, then there will be a flurry of activity before people get back to work. But it doesn't replace the value of being face-to-face, so for me, hybrid is best.

Some people do take the piss. But then some people take the piss in the office. A good manager will deal with it either way. Weak managers will insist on presenteeism. But as one manager I had said, "work is an activity, not a location." Obviously some work activities are dependent on location, but not all are.

I've wfh since 1995, and also for a couple of years around 1990 in the US.
It's definitely a privilege - I was allowed to do it because DHs job moved, my company didn't want to lose me and I'd got a track record of working for them.
A few other established employees have been allowed to work remotely but the company won't allow it for new hires. Other colleagues do a bit post covid but it's mainly so they can drive into the office outside of peak rush hours which are dire in their area.

Will they also change the law to make sacking someone easier? Even with only one day WFH it was easy to see who treated it as a chance to slack off.

I don't think it's possible to create a blanket rule. This will vary so much depending on the role requirements, organisational culture, etc.

I think many jobs could be done remotely provided the organisation has the right culture, team-building strategies and excellent performance management processes. Remote working is fantastic when people don't take the piss.

However, it's definitely not suitable for all jobs.

I think on future, salaries will be influenced by the remote working proportion of the job. I think this is fair.

I see this said quite often and I don’t think it’s true. My work can be done from home a lot of the time but could not be out-sourced abroad. Already a very in-demand professional and requires a great amount of location specific knowledge and on-going training. I imagine that my situation is not too uncommon. I think AI might be more a concern than off-shoring in the long-term.

Maybe you’re thinking about the call centre example? That’s not a very high proportion of people but anyway I understand a lot of those are now being brought back in.

Yes I don't doubt there are roles in nursing that can be done from home that's not really my point ,my point was most can't, if you are an in patient you don't want to be cared for remotely do you ?

Things like accounts payable could very easily be outsourced abroad though. And anything purely process-driven, really. Accounts receivable, payroll etc.

There seems to be an assumption that people based in other countries wouldn't be capable of doing our "niche" office-based roles. But no-one over here was born having all that specialised knowledge and if UK-based people have received "a great amount of on going training" then I'm not sure why people based abroad also couldn't be trained to the required standard. I don't think British people are necessarily more intelligent than people in, say, Eastern European countries

@RockaLock Woah! I did NOT say that that British people are cleverer! There are people in Eastern Europe, India, New Zealand, all over in the same profession as me but our quals aren’t transferable.

I’d like to see employers legally obliged to justify why specific roles cannot be performed at home from the outset. Wfh jobs should have the location embedded in job specs, The focus should move away from the employee and instead on to the role.
I think this could lead to a fairer, more transparent system and help prevent employees resenting each other.

A whole rethink is needed on job specs - if a role requires face to face management of staff or attendance at meetings for a specific reason, then that should be within the job spec from the outset, with a commensurate uplift in salary.
The option to take a more limited, wfh role at a lower salary should be available. If promotions are not available for a wfh role then say that in the job spec and explain why.
Transparency is key. If a job can’t fully be done from home but an alternative role can be, explore that.

We saw no difference whatsoever in quality of management, training, supervision, collaboration etc when we moved to 100% wfh. Productivity increased. People were more available, not less. And I say that as the head of a team.

Now we’re hybrid it’s a hornets nest of resentment, sniping, people working strictly to their hours etc and productivity has gone down. We’ve also lost staff and struggled to recruit.

The UK has a huge problem with absenteeism, low productivity, low morale in the workplace etc. I’d rather have a focused, productive, collaborative team that go the extra mile for each other. I couldn’t give a monkeys whether they’re in the office or not.

@DreadPirateRobots @Whyherewego
Thank you for explaining about the tax issue. I hadn't thought of people moving abroad for work so that makes a lot of sense.

it's definitely not suitable for all jobs.

It's definitely not suitable for all people, either. I once worked from home completely for a stretch after I wrote off a car. I live alone, and I am used to being on my own, but working from home all the time was definitely not good for my mental health - and because I was working, I couldn't pop down to the supermarket or the library just to see other people, as I would at the weekend. (It's also very difficult to look at cars to buy when you don't have a car, because most car sales aren't in the town centre/close to public transport.) Lockdown was different because everyone was in the same boat, and there was much more effort to make sure people didn't feel too isolated.

I had a UK office based job. The office was manned 24x7x365

My job was out sourced to India & myself & colleagues were made redundant

Be careful what you wish for !

@Listen4etterinthepost are you saying that working in an office (rather than WFH) increases the risk of off-shoring? I’m not following.

This is a good point. Should employers be liable for injuries or health issues caused by inappropriate home working conditions when the wfh was at the employee’s request and not a requirement of the job?

YABU, and I wfh most of the time.

Employees need to prove that they can be trusted to get work done at home. We have had team members who would just vanish and our work is customer services so we need to be available during 9-5 hours.

MurdoMunro

I had a technical role, which evolved over time due to the changes in technology. My role involved speaking to internal & external people based all over UK, Europe & USA.

The job was moved to India due to cost cutting issues.

I do not think that it matters if the person works from home or an office or factory. If the owners and management can save money, jobs will go to cheaper places abroad.

India, Philippines, Eastern Europe pay less per hour, possibly no holiday or sick pay, probably no pension.

I still have to have a workplace assessment for my home office space. So if work has signed it off, and I have abided by ant recommendations and not otherwise changed things, then yes, they are as liable as they would be in the office.

Remote working doesn't work for all employers and many employees abuse it. Dp had to let two people go because they essentially weren't working (nobody works from home now except in exceptional circumstances eg child care emergency)

It’s amazing how people can’t think beyond what works for them personally!

My employer is tedious for this. It can take me 45 minutes to battle 4 miles through traffic every day to sit in an office where I could easily do my job from home ( phone advice work).