To have reservations about a friendship with a woman who refers to Israel's actions in Gaza as a genocide?

[Oodiks]

I like this woman a lot, but we have very differing world views, specifically her belief that Israel is committing genocide in Gaza.

We work at a university and were coming back from lunch together when she commented that she was pleased the protestors hadn't come back. I agreed, noting how nerve wracking it must have been for Jewish students on campus to run the gauntlet of pro-Palestinian / anti-Zionist posters in the encampment.

We'd been talking about the American election over lunch, and I thought we'd agreed that Kamala Harris was the better candidate for her views on climate change, if nothing else, but then my 'friend' commented on Biden/Harris sending arms "to support the genocide" and I was left kind of speechless.

Am I being unreasonable to feel unsure about continuing this friendship?

@doodleschnoodle

"Self-defence my arse. Self-defence needs to be proportionate. I can't think anyone could in good faith claim the alleged killing of 40,000+ people, many of them civilians, is a proportionate response to an attack that killed 1200."

Nowhere in any rules of warfare or UN conventions does it state that self defence or retaliation needs to be proportionate.

The Japanese killed 2300 American military and civilians in an unprovoked attack at Pearl Harbour. In retaliation the US killed between 2 and 3 million. Not that is not proportionate so do you think that the US was in the wrong here?

The invasion of Ukraine by Russia has caused 31k Ukrainian deaths, however the Russians have suffered 70k deaths. This is clearly not proportionate, so do you think that Ukraine is in the wrong and not acting in self defence.

We haven't 'let' Israel do anything. They have every right to defend their people. Its nothing to do with us. What should they have done when Hamas invaded their country and kidnapped their people? Just sat on their hands and let them keep coming back for more?

And Netanyahu has to appease the far right in the Knesset to hang on to power. The only thing he cares about is himself - and there are many Israelis protesting on the streets who recognise this and want him gone.

Well I do see conversations about that.

Amd I think people find it mind boggling that Jewish people having been so appallingly treated in the past, the Israeli government sees fit to act as it is.

Did you ask your friend that too?

Agree 100%.

And that was a deliberate distinction between Jewish and Israeli, as they don't speak for all Jewish people as said previously.

Well over 16,700 children killed in Gaza in the last year. In March, the United Nations said Israel had killed more children there in the preceding months than in four years of conflict worldwide.

How are 16,700 children legitimate targets? And how can it further Israel's cause? Do they seriously believe that other children seeing their siblings and parents killed and maimed are going to grow up loving Israel and eschewing Hamas?

If you’re framing it in the ‘who was there first’ conquest terms, then the Muslim conquest of the Levant happened a long time after Judea was established (600AD vs 2000-1000BC).

The term Palestinian (Philistine) was later used collectively to describe all inhabitants of the Philistine region, including Christians, Jews and Muslims and not a ‘self-description’ of exclusively Jews.

Israel is committing genocide.

HTH.

@pinkoink believe what you want.

The most likely to blow up the state of Israel in a political and conceptual sense is the current government.

You can't be this thick!?

Two things can be true at the same time.

Hamas are evil scum who need to be stopped.
Israel murdering thousands of innocent men, women and children is also wrong.

It is not antisemitic to disagree with what Israel is doing. I 100% supported Israel in the beginning but they're taking it too far now and have shown total disregard and contempt for the innocent people in Gaza. There has to be a better way.

Your refusal to see that makes you the red flag.

@Oodiks Or, you know, perhaps don't factor in political perspectives when picking and choosing your friends? You know, like normal people do?

It's best to surround yourself with friends with different perspectives and experiences. I know people from all ends of the political spectrum, and I don't like or dislike them solely based on political opinions. If you know people with a wide range of views, this allows your own views to be tested or challenged and you develop a more balanced perspective on the world.

Don't be silly. Hamas have made unrealistic demands for their release. For example the release of a thousand palestinian criminals from Israeli prisons in exchange. If hamas wanted to free the hostages, they could do. But choose not to by making stupid demands.

With kindness, I feel she can see quite clearly. 20/20 vision. Maybe hang out with her more and she’ll open your eyes in other ways.

To quote *@@TheHangingGardensofBasildon ^"Israel is lauded as a western-style democracy, which they believe should have much higher principles than they perceive that they actually do.
Nobody's opinions of Kim Jong-Un or Putin could possibly get any lower, as they are already at absolute rock bottom; and nobody has the remotest respect for their countries in the first place."^

Being critical of Israel is not anti-semitism, anti-Zionism, anti-anything. It is simply being critical of Israel's Government's decisions and actions. But Netanyahu has said quite openly that he wants to kill all Palestinians. He might be being a little more circumspect about it now and specify Hamas, but he didn't used to be.

That is incorrect, military action must always be proportionate in terms of international law.www.gov.uk/government/publications/international-humanitarian-law-and-the-uk-government/uk-and-international-humanitarian-law-2018

You’re the one arguing for non intervention, so not sure how your argument makes any sense unless you’re arguing my point for me?

Not to get into the debate but its ok to have friendships with people who have different views than our own and cutting off a friendship because they have different opinions than you says a lot about you and your ignorance tbh

Percentage of population wise, the stats are totally proportionate. It still needs to stop though all of it does.

Stats re Russia and Ukraine

Interesting use of the word "Palestinian criminals" - have you looked into this? I mean properly. A lot of these "criminals" might be better described as hostages themselves

That may have been true last year, but yesterday, today and tomorrow, Israel (the state/ government not the Jewish people) has a different stance: the war stops when every last member of Hamas is eliminated.

Problem is, how can you proof or not that someone is a member of Hamas?
Where do you draw a line? At what point does it turn into genocide?
At what point does Hamas turn into
Hezbollah - who is next? Where does it stop?
I'm sure most Arab States that have had runins with Israel in the past are asking themselves this kind of question.

I think your friends mentioning of how Israel became to be and how it grew to its current size is very relevant to the current situation.

I actually agree with this.

Ad rem, I wouldn’t end the friendship OP. If the fact that you have a different view is an obstacle for your friend she can’t overcome, let her end it.

Yes this is lovely. It's great to be around lots of different people and views and have a wide circle of friends to challenge your own thinking. You never know- you might even agree with her once you give it more thought and appreciate that mass killings equate to a genocide - just like what sadly happened to the Jews by the Nazi's. Currently there is mass extermination of the Palestinians. Will we ever learn from history. It's all so sad.