To have reservations about a friendship with a woman who refers to Israel's actions in Gaza as a genocide?

[Oodiks]

I like this woman a lot, but we have very differing world views, specifically her belief that Israel is committing genocide in Gaza.

We work at a university and were coming back from lunch together when she commented that she was pleased the protestors hadn't come back. I agreed, noting how nerve wracking it must have been for Jewish students on campus to run the gauntlet of pro-Palestinian / anti-Zionist posters in the encampment.

We'd been talking about the American election over lunch, and I thought we'd agreed that Kamala Harris was the better candidate for her views on climate change, if nothing else, but then my 'friend' commented on Biden/Harris sending arms "to support the genocide" and I was left kind of speechless.

Am I being unreasonable to feel unsure about continuing this friendship?

No. People can and should protest what they feel deserves protest. They dont need to justify it to you. Who are you to decide what is worthy of peoples feelings of outrage?

you're literally using other genocides (all against muslims I'd like to highlight) to distract from atrocities of genocide.

They are terrorising and many of their recent actions have been deemed unlawful by the UN. Not that they care

It's true, they are.

Why not share the thread with your mate and let her make up her mind if she wants to associate with people like you OP?

And Jewish women?
Also subjugated;
unclean when menstruating/giving birth,
have to cover their hair with a wig or other covering, etc
Very devout Jewish men do not sit next to women...
Not happy about contraception
Don't think there is much difference between any subjugation of women by any religion or culture

we'd agreed that Kamala Harris was the better candidate for her views on climate change

Surely the Greens are the best candidate for climate change issues? Stein & Wade.

Jill Stein is also Jewish so…

Since you ask, I imagine what we would have done is sent in a vastly greater land force, with only limited tactical air support, and suffered many more casualties than the IDF in order to protect civilian lives. We wouldn't have started from the proposition that one English life is worth a hundred of an inferior race.

42,000 killed estimated 11,000 are children

97,000 severely injured

90% of the population displaced many have had to move on to another safe area and travel isn’t safe as Isreal have a number of times attacked safe areas/roads

and around two thirds of buildings destroyed

that is a genocide in progress

@thedodo

"No. People can and should protest what they feel deserves protest. They dont need to justify it to you. Who are you to decide what is worthy of peoples feelings of outrage?

you're literally using other genocides (all against muslims I'd like to highlight) to distract from atrocities of genocide"

Of course people should protest what they feel deserves protesting.

I deliberately chose the examples of genocides involving muslims against muslims to illustrate my point and also because it is pretty clear no one gives a crap about the genocide of Christians by muslims in say Sudan or Nigeria.

But surely and logically their protest / outrage time would be more effectively used in protests against China or Pakistan on the basis of the greater number of muslims being killed/ persecuted.

Or is there something particularly or different about Israelis that these protesters especially dislike?

I’m surprised it’s taken a year for you to realise that supporting Israel‘s actions is quite unpalatable to the majority. Obvious exclusions are if you’re a Western leader.

The sheer arrogance and Western superiority in your notion that the Middle East seek to destroy Israel and then come for the West. You think they need something from us they don’t have? They have everything they need. They’re not some substandard form of humanity that need to conquer us. There’s only one country doing the conquering…backed by the conquerors of old.

Can you just imagine for a moment that a bunch of French people came across from the Channel and killed and kidnapped around 1,200 People in the UK. Can you really imagine the UK going to France killing over 44,000 French civilians and destroying the whole of France.

Not all lives are equal. History tells us this with the slave trade and other atrocities committed by mainly the West. Interesting how these countries are also staying 'Israel has a right to defend itself' with mechanical ease knowing they are complicit.

No. if you're a thief youre a thief. No one cares if you're a catholic thief.

No matter how many times you coyly suggest without saying it, and try to circle back to it, it just comes across as a pointless argument to distract.

This whole mess has ultimately been created by Great Britain who saw Palestine as their right to give away in the creation of Israel in 1947. Not only have Palestinians been displaced, they are now undergoing ethnic cleaning- also.known as genocide.

@Busybeemumm

"History tells us this with the slave trade and other atrocities committed by mainly the West. "

I recognise that self hate of the West is particularly fashionable amongst certain groups but historically and numerically the slave trade was mainly committed by Arab countries and the Ottoman Empire.

Indeed slavery and slave raids against Christians still exist today in Sudan.

I think that is unfair. The Americans forced us to give Palestine to the Jewish terrorists of the time. Otherwise we would probably have tried to pacify both sides by military means before deciding what to do.

Again I recognise that self hate of the West is very popular especially against the UK but please can we stick to historical facts rather than just making shit up to fit with this self hate narrative.

The UK did not hand over independence to Israel in 1948 - the UN did in the form of UNSCOP. The UK passed the independence question on Palestine over to the UN to decide:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/UnitedNationssSpecialCommitteeeon_Palestine

While I have an audience of Israeli apologists, can they justify the treatment of Palestinian prisoners? Routine humiliation, torture (often fatal) and poor conditions in prison have been extensively demonstrated in media, including Israeli media. Is that justified?

Also the Israeli apologists keep insisting they are fighting a war (rather than terrorising the population of enclave of stateless people they occupy and control). If they are fighting a war why aren't Palestinian fighter given the status of prisoners of war and Red Cross/Crescent allowed access to them?

certain groups
And which groups are these then? Do you mean the descendants of the slave trade?! Yes slavery exits today, even in the UK with modern slavery and the grooming gangs for pedalling drugs. You need to get to grips with the reality of British History. You know the kind they won't teach the kids in school. David Olusoga has written some great books on the subject you might want to read.

a) Jill Stein is not going to get elected president though is she?

b) as many have pointed out, being Jewish does not entail being a Zionist and I'll add that being Jewish doesn't even mean that you have to have an opinion on Israel.

And the plan was for a 2 state recognition which has never happened. Compare the map of the Israel from then to now and the land grabbing becomes very clear. The Palestinians have been pushed into the smallest of area and now being ethically cleansed-known as genocide.

While you're asking about access to prisoners, why haven't the Red Cross/Crescent been given access to the hostages taken by Hamas last October 7th?

Israel has relinquished most of the land taken in wars started by it's neighbors. Explain that?

Ok, so what you're saying is that the other side commit egregious war crimes so we're jolly well going to as well. But at the same time you want us to believe that Israel does not routinely commit war crimes.

I really think you have to choose one or other position!

Political necessity and American pressure.

Edit: after all, America was doing much of the fighting, especially intelligence and air support, in the wars Israel won.

'People like me'? People who don't agree that Israel's actions do not actually, legally, constitute a genocide and to name it that closes down the possibility of rational discussion?