“Strong sense of justice” - unreasonable?

[Waiting9]

I have been seeking counselling after being sexually harassed by my manager at work, my therapist has said that I have a “strong sense of justice” and stand up for myself. Is this a bad thing? Is this something I should change?

I complained about my manager at work and got managed out of my job, and I can’t help but wonder if I should have “played the game” and kept him on side until I found a new job. However his behaviour was increasingly inappropriate and I felt backed into a corner, if I didn’t complain he would have wanted more from me that I didn’t feel comfortable with. He was asking me to stay at hotels with him, would speak to me about sex and dating and how he thinks I’m attractive. I don’t necessarily have rigid morals elsewhere, but I can see how I made unpopular decisions at work by not letting things slide and by rocking the boat, which allowed my manager to successfully manage me out. The truth is, no one else at work cared enough about me to act on my concerns, and I was unpopular enough that others sided with my manager.

It's not a bad thing.

But as you've seen, and as I also learnt, if you play the game you get much better outcomes.

Of someone told me I had a strong sense of justice, I might take That as a compliment. Did your therapist tell you it was an inappropriate sense of justice?

I wouldn’t say it’s a bad thing and in the position you were in I think you did the right thing.
Are you a very black and white personality though. Sometimes things can have grey areas and require a bit more nuance… this can be where a ‘strong sense or justice’ could be interpreted as maybe lacking in social understanding or empathy. Its difficult to know.

I think it's a compliment.

Have you spoken to a solicitor?

Thanks. My therapist didn’t say I was inappropriate but I do want to discuss it further (the session ended right at that point, so I need to wait for next time)

I wouldn’t say I’m a black and white thinker, I studied psychology and philosophy myself and have worked in mental health services myself in the past. My current role is in the civil service and I suppose I feel like my employer should have less grey areas as it’s a public company - there has been other incidents in the team such as racism etc and I always felt it was a HR nightmare. I was a manager myself so felt in a precarious position if I didn’t have a low tolerance approach to the racism etc.

What a terrible situation. I think your sense of justice is normal and everyone else’s is weak.

It's difficult OP and I think you've learnt some important lessons. People rarely side with you; they look after their own interests. The weaker party often gets revictimised and judged. Finally, it's rarely worth taking action, it's better for your mental health to find another job.

You've done an amazing thing. I'm so sorry you are suffering now.

I am looking into this but trying to weigh up whether the stress of a potential tribunal is worth it

Were you in the union, OP? If you are thinking about a tribunal, check if your home insurance has legal cover. Also, I think you probably could have reported the racism under the whistleblowing framework, which may have offered some protection, but different depts have slightly different policies as to what can be covered under whistleblowing so I couldn't say for sure without reading your policy. I'm sorry this happened to you. Not all CS depts are like this.

I think a strong sense of justice is a good thing. The CS needs people like you.

I get this but it’s hard to understand too. I don’t think I could have not complained about my manager, because he was very much attracted to me and saw any action as a snub. So if I didn’t want to go for dinner with him or stay at same hotel, he would get aggressive. I’m not sure how I could have kept him onside without progressing things how he wanted ie romantically. I’m not sure what I would do differently if I was in this situation in the future - go off sick immediately?

You did nothing wrong. Everyone involved in allowing you to be managed out should be ashamed of themselves. They are unethical misogynists and they are protecting an aggressive sexual predator. I hope that the next complainant happens to find someone with a backbone who will help her deal with him correctly, according to the legal frameworks that are in place to protect us all from sexual harassment.

You’ve been let down, and you have every right to feel furious, frustrated, and very unsettled by the way you’ve been treated. I’m so sorry they’ve done this to you.

If he was aggressive, you were in a very difficult position and I would have contacted my union or ACAS for advice. Aggressive sexual harassment is gross misconduct.

A strong sense of justice is a wonderful thing to have. Justice is the idea that everyone should be treated fairly and equally, regardless of their sex, race, religion etc. Where harm has been alleged, justice means that both accuser and the accused will be listened to and judged fairly and if there's been harm then a reasonable form of remediation should happen. I would be much more worried if your therapist hadn't said that you have a strong sense of justice. Id see it that she sees you as a strong person who is prepared to stand up for what is right and true. It's definitely something to be proud of in my book. Try not to be ground down by all the people who would just let people like your ex boss carry on manipulating or abusing others. He does it because he can get away with it and knows that most people aren't strong enough to stand up to him. It's this imbalance of power and others looking the other way and not getting involved, that allows the worst predators do unspeakable things to others, often many times. I wouldn't be surprised if your boss hasn't pressured someone before you either. Remember you did nothing wrong and it's not up to you to go along with anything sexual within a workplace, just so you can keep your job!!

This.

I don’t think it is “a strong sense of justice” to not want to be sexually harassed. That is just having some level of boundary.

I hope that you manage to figure out what the best thing for you to do is. (Whether that is an employment tribunal or not.)

It means just that. Therapy is usually to help you navigate how your personality interacts with other personality types/situations.

It's not negative as a character trait per se, but it won't always be a constructive way to handle every situation.

Take, for example, "detail oriented". This is great for situations that require looking at in-depth, but rubbish if you can't answer a question such as "do you want curry or Chinese" without a full breakdown of pros and cons.

This struck me, as I am very similar and have a similar background. I have a strong sense of justice/fairness and would have reacted the same way as you. I'm terrible at playing the game (disclaimer, I'm also autistic so often don't even understand the game - I'm not saying I think you're neurodivergent). In therapy I have learned that this is a strength of mine, rather than a deficit or an unreasonableness. I'm sure others might see it as such, but I see their lack of a sense of justice as unreasonable. It's just different perspectives.

Also, I think your ex-manager is an arsehole. If playing the game would be giggling along to his sexual harassment, then fuck that.

OP you have been managed out of your job after a sexual misconduct case. You've got nothing else to loose. Likely the employer (if it's a big enough company) will settle out of court, probably if you go after constructive dismissal or dismissal following your claim. Did you follow company policy when you reported the sexual misconduct? By that I mean did you complain to HR using their recognised procedure and give them the opportunity to deal with your complaint?

I think a strong sense of justice is a compliment, anything else is weakness of character.

Do you have any email, texts, witnesses to support your case?

I don't want to make you paranoid OP but just in case she meant something else by it (no idea if she did or didn't!) "strong sense of justice" is often used to refer to people with neurodiversity so I wonder if she might think you're neurodiverse and be putting it kindly? I always read between the lines and am a paranoid type so I don't want to make you overthink it more than you are already. But might be worth considering in case you think there's another subtext to what she means?

I'm really sorry and angry that this has happened to you. I hope that by standing by your morals you will encourage other women to do the same, and that you will be stronger for it in the long run. Even if you don't pursue this to tribunal, hopefully this poor excuse of a man's card will be marked in any case. I bet there are other women there really grateful that you called it and that it gives them the strength to do the same. Hope you find your next work tribe soon who appreciate your sense of moral justice.

I admire and respect your strong sense of justice. You have done the right thing.

Thank you everyone. It’s a weird thing to go through, I’m in my 20s and I suppose I just wanted a normal manager to show me the ropes but instead he just tried to use me and get what he wanted from me, which was inappropriate. It’s like I’m having to self-teach the lay of the land and some of these lessons.

I'm not sure what it means for adults, but it was always what we wrote on school reports for a child who constantly complained "That's not fair!" (e.g. a reasonable adjustment has been made for a disabled classmate and they think they should get the same despite not being disabled.)

It's not what I would have used to describe someone who objects to effectively being sexually harassed by her manager, I'd describe that as "normal level of self-respect."

Thanks. The context of the conversation is I asked my therapist if something in my past is relevant and compared it to my creepy manager. She said we can explore it further next week (as we were running out of time). But her initial thoughts are that it’s not necessarily relevant to work, I did the right thing in both situations and I have a strong sense of justice and stand up for myself. She felt I acted appropriately and stood up for myself in the right way and asked before our next meeting, if bring other examples that have happened that I think are repeated patterns of behaviour, as she doesn’t feel it’s the case.

I am thinking it over as I’m keen to not end up in the same situation again, and wondering if letting more things slide is a way to protect myself. It’s a lot to navigate I suppose.

When you have been abused it's natural human nature to think to yourself, "is there something I did or didn't do that caused it?" The answer is no! The only person to blame is the one who has purposely used their position of power over you to try to get you to do something against your will. If you challenge them, they immediately try to diminish or say it's your fault for not taking a "joke". They will try to make you doubt yourself by saying you are too uptight, should be flattered or it's normal. The abuser will manage the people around you, to make it seem like you are being troublesome or unreasonable, to undermine you. Where there's an age or experience difference, they will see that as just another way to make you feel vulnerable and unsure.

He purposely used your age, inexperience in the role and his position of power over you. He knew it was wrong but thought he could get away with it.

To be clear, no job should require you to put up with "accidentally" inappropriate touching you, asking about sexuality or relationships or getting you to book hotel rooms together.

You shouldn't ever think of putting up with it, to get along. The abuser is unlikely to stop and will likely just continue to escalate, until they get what they want. If you do "go along" with it, they will use it as evidence that you "wanted it" and then just had a change of heart to trick them.

Often colleagues are aware but either they are afraid of losing their jobs or just glad it's not them who has been targeted.

If you are ever in a similar situation in the future, make sure you know what the policy is for reporting it. Do so, as soon as possible. Stay factual and keep all evidence and notes on exactly who said what and when.

As they have already pushed you out of your job, your way of remedy is to go for unfair dismissal. It might be emotionally difficult but if nothing else, it's going to shine a spotlight on the ex boss and might stop him making the next young woman his target. If it goes well, you will be compensated for what he put you through.

I feel for you, especially as it's the beginning of your working life and it must have been very difficult and stressful. It shakes your trust in people and makes you doubt who you are and how you should be. The vast majority of workplaces aren't going to be like this and won't treat you like this. I've a daughter who is a similar age and I would be immensely proud of her, if she was able to be as strong as you are being in such a difficult situation.