How would you have dealt with this?

[Saycheeseburgers]

DS 9 years old, constantly being nasty, unprovoked, to his little brother. So rude to myself and DH, silly back chat (eg this morning when I asked him if he’s ready for school - because I am fed up of telling him over and over to brush his teeth/get his shoes on - his response is “are YOU ready for work” in a horrible tone).

Walking to school today we see a friend from his class - he doesn’t have many friends and I can see why. I was chatting to the mum, he ignored his friend and he was walking in the middle of the road, I had to tell him twice to get on the pavement.

Walking to his class I see another friend so I’m chatting to that parent, he tried to interrupt me several times. When I left the parent he started walking deliberately away from me, when I tried to ask him what was wrong he says NOTHING so rudely, completely refused to speak to me, and went into school.

I’ve come home feeling like shit over how utterly crap our relationship is, but I don’t know what to do. I am constantly telling him off because he’s constantly picking on his brother or being rude. He gets the world, including special trips out just him and cuddly time on the sofa every evening when his brother is in bed. We are busy with work and clubs but I always offer to play with him when we’ve got a free minute.

Reading this back he clearly wants attention, but he gets SO much. A lot of it negative, because his behaviour is so bad, but I praise so much when I can.

How old little bro, does he also wind up the 9 yo?

Little brother is 6. No, it’s almost always unprovoked. DS2 is no way perfect and he overreacts a lot. But he can be sitting having his breakfast and DS1 will start teasing him. Or when we arrive home in the car, DS2 likes to undo his seatbelt himself so DS1 will quickly undo it before he can, and then when he gets upset scream “it doesn’t matter, it’s just a seat belt” at him. It’s really purposeful teasing. If DS2 is unkind in any way to DS1 I always pull him up on it even though DS1 deserves it because I don’t want it to look like unequal treatment.

He gets the world? Even when he is an arse?

I would explain that people don't want to be around you when you treat them like that. Then do something else instead of special trips or cuddly time.

I do, I really do. I have had so many talks with him. And he will behave for the lead up time to his treat, quite often.

Tonight after school he won’t have any screens. I could say no screens for a week, I’ve done it before, it won’t make a difference. It’s so hard.

How is he at school and has he ever been assessed for any additional needs? Your posts basically describe my 8 year old, who has ASD, right down to the way he behaves towards his sibling! Keenly following for any helpful suggestions…

Is get him go see a family psychiatrist as something is clearly upsetting g him that he can't formulate into words to tell you or any other adult so he's acting out.

If this isn't addressed it will escalate and possibly turn from backchatting into violence as he lashed out at you.

Serious chat to set boundaries amd consequences. My response to "are YOU ready for work?" would have been "I didnt catch that, did yoh say you wanted me to confiscate your X?"

A week without screens isn't a physical, immediate removal.

Insist he replies the belt or something is taken from him.

If he can't eat nicely at the table, he waits on the step til ds is finished. If he leaves, something is taken.

Consistent regular boundaries. And make sure there is a regular 1 to 1 time for him and you where there is a chance to praise him that is never on the line. Board games on a Friday. Praise his strategy. Add some carrot - if we get to Friday with no bad behaviour then you can pick a special dessert. If he does something nice for ds, point it out, hug him, reward him impromptu.

He does, he’s diagnosed with ADHD (not medicated, but that’s not my choice!) and I think very likely ASD too.

How do you cope @Milesandmilesandmiles ? I feel like he has no attachment to me, it’s that bad. He’s ok in school, we had some issues in Y1 as he was constantly getting up etc but he’s had lovely teachers since and great reports considering. His teacher this year is very different again but so far he seems happy. He has some friendship problems which I’m trying so hard to deal with but it’s a losing battle.

I’ve been looking for a therapist but the industry is unregulated so I’ve been warned against it.

Ok, so a lot of the suggestions you will get on this post probably won’t work for him due to his neurodiversity. It’s early days for us but a lot of what you have said, I would just ignore and move on. I might say, we don’t talk to people like that (if very rude), or if he won’t tell me what’s wrong then I will just let him know I am there to listen if he wants to talk.

It’s not about you and your bond with him, in fact the opposite, he is behaving like this with you because of your bond and you are his safe space. I do get the embarrassment though 😬

Things like rewards do work though @Milesandmilesandmiles which I think it what makes it seem to much worse. He’d been a horror all last weekend, so we said unless he behaves from then, a treat which DH had planned to take them both to on Wednesday evening. He was fine Monday and Tuesday and all day Wednesday. So he went on the treat out. Then literally since yesterday morning, awful again.

He’s meant to be playing at a friend’s house tomorrow afternoon and I can’t bring myself to cancel that because 1. He doesn’t get many play date opportunities and 2. Because I don’t think it’s fair on the other child.

I'm with you OP on not punishing by taking away opportunities for social interaction. Screen removal is the best pubishment because they're all on it too much anyway.

While you interpreted him as being cheeky when asking if YOU were ready for work I'd suggest he was trying to be funny. The line is thin sometimes but I would give him the benefit of a doubt and ask him since when you being on time is his responsability. The opposite is true though and explain that it is perceived as cheeky and rude when children respond to their parents in that way.

For the sibling situation I have it worse than you where DS 14 Asd is always on DS 11 trying to get a reaction or just oppresses him by being with him all the time. The only solution is separation so we try to separate them as much as possible. Have seen numerous psychiatrists and none has been helpful for this. It's draining...

Sounds exactly like my daughter, she is now 12 and thankfully much better (although I am dreading the teenage years!). She is just so stubborn and hates people telling her what to do. She is the exact opposite to her sister, although I treated them both the same. Nothing worked in the way of discipline, I remember taking every toy out of her room, threatening to throw it all away, she just did not care. Shouting at her and losing my patience just made her worse. What's that saying about catching more flies with honey than vinegar? I had to try and persuade her to do the right thing by making her believe it was her idea, or trying to talk her round calmly. I am not an advocate of gentle parenting, but shouting and discipline just did not work for her (it did for her sister, so it was trying to adapt different style for each). Also, it was good to talk to her after she was calm, later in the day. To explain how she made me or others feel. She may have stormed off when i tried to tell her, but I know it was sinking in.

I feel your pain. I am literally sat in a CAMHS waiting room right now whilst my 12 year old son is having a QB test for the ADHD side of a dual ND assessment. My son 100% has PDA and as soon as you described what is behaviour is like I immediately thought PDA or ODD without even knowing he had ADHD. He’s getting to that age of wanting some control over his autonomy and unfortunately for him that comes in a more dominant way.

For my son I set very clear boundaries of tolerance. Nicely, nicely doesn’t work for him so I have to be quite firm. “No thank you, we’re not doing that today” “I asked you to do C because without that you can’t do Y, so it’s your decision” I put the control in his hands but in a way that’s firm and minimum demand. I almost always complete tasks with him to support him. He can’t tidy his room or do homework without support. He won’t even attempt it. I’ve just had to accept this is how his brain works. Now he’s at High School these behaviours are starting to show there. In Primary they said they didn’t notice any issues but he masked heavily and would get in my car at the end of the day and explode over all the things that happened. He’s chew holes in the inside of his cheeks and constantly rock side to side and tap. But apparently they didn’t notice any signs 🫣 All I’m saying is, even if in school they say they haven’t noticed a change it’s probably because he’s being himself at home, and masking elsewhere out of protective instinct. And it’s also another form of demand avoidance.

i hope you find some middle ground. Definitely do some PDA and ODD research. They are comorbidities of ASD and ADHD respectively.

Thank you. That sounds really hard with the sibling dynamics. I need to read some books recommended to me - Siblings without rivalry etc. As the dynamics are unhealthy. DS2 is by no means easy but he’s just not told off anywhere near as much because he never backchats, or deliberately teases. He doesn’t always do as he’s told but at 6 starting to count often still works! So I can see for DS1 he must look like golden child, but I’m not going to tell him off for the sake of it. Plus he is younger so expectations are different.

Thank you. Do you think your DD is NT and that’s just her character?

Yep, on the ADHD questionnaire he ticked so many of the ODD type questions. So I know he has that although it’s not formally diagnosed, and that’s partially why I worry so much, as I know he can develop conduct disorder. I don’t believe he has PDA as his refusals aren’t driven by anxiety, and to be honest he’s not demand avoidant hugely (he’s a pain to get ready for school but it’s because he’s not wanting to brush his teeth instead of reading or annoying his brother).

But I think his ADHD makes him seek stimulation from conflict. And then his moods are rooted by something else. I have to admit I’m not always so nice to him, I have said things in the past like “no wonder you don’t have many friends” when he’s moody around school friends. I know this is awful but I can’t help myself and it’s true, it’s hard to feel sorry for him when he’s so awful. I know his self esteem is probably really low, but he’s an absolute turd.

@Saycheeseburgers

I always had my son down as ADHD but in the last 2-3 years he’s moved in to ASD territory and that’s why we sought diagnosis. I just thought he was more ODD but he wasn’t in school. Then as we moved towards high school the anxiety started. Once hormones are at play it sends them in all directions. It is so hard isn’t it. My mildest mannered eldest is 15 and he is stroppy and lippy. My youngest is high needs autistic so I’ve got all levels going on. My eldest winds up the youngest but they do have a good bond usually. He’s doing it lots at the minute (I think he has inattentive ADHD but diagnosis not needed).

I usually ask him how he thinks he would feel if someone was doing that to him, because it’s only amusing if all parties are laughing. I really do feel for you. Such a difficult situation and very stressful.

You need adhd specific advice.

Obvious first step is meds (I note you say that he is currently unmediated and this is not your choice)

Next step is very very immediate rewards and consequences. No screens for a week is too long and too difficult.

For example:
Morning routine - get up, eat breakfast, brush teeth, get dressed.
Give a sticker for each one done but make sure he gets the sticker.
Have what he needs to do on a list (the stickers can go next to it)
He can watch tv when you have inspected him and he is ready.

So very quick rewards at a micro task level, with the automatic consequence that if he's not ready early no tv.

But then the consequence doesn't carry in beyond the morning.

He sounds a bit spoilt, and can see that his negative behaviour does get your attention. The thing he said about you being ready for work. Tbh I'd find that quite funny.
I hope you can try and talk to him about anything that bothering him. I guess you could try family therapy? But he could be just jealous of his sibling and realises he still gets treats and cuddles even if he's acting up.

I went through a period like this at his age, in my case it was a defensive mechanism. If I'm already nasty to you from jump, then I've beat you to the punch and no harm done to me. Df took the door off my room, and said it would be returned when I earned it back. That set me right pretty quickly.

I do this too as he actually has a “friend” in school (who certainly has stuff going on) who teases him and annoys him for the sake of it. And he hates it. Then he’s doing the same to DS2!

When you say the industry is unregulated…. most therapists are under professional bodies that are very stringent. Psychologists for example have to be registered with the Health & Care Professions Council. It’s just important to check the credentials and professional membership when you look.

Thank you. Completely agree about the immediate rewards as they do work. Stickers unfortunately don’t touch the sides, we’ve tried and tried. If I said he could watch TV once he’s fully ready for school if there’s time, on the first day he would probably get ready well and really quickly. But the novelty would quickly wear off and what’s likely to happen is he won’t get ready quick enough, so there’ll either only be 5 minutes to watch tv, or no time at all, and then that’ll escalate.

We’ve also never had screens before school and I’m reluctant to start as it might be tricky for DS2 too to make the transition, and at the moment he transitions well.

Thank you though, it must sound like I’m pissing on your ideas but I do completely agree with the immediate rewards/consequences. It’s just so hard to come up with something on the spot.

That's not true - child psychotherapy is regulated by the ACP who are themselves regulated by the Professional Standards Authority; they're taken seriously.

Do not go with anyone who doesn't describe themselves as a child psychotherapist if you are looking at open-ended talking therapy - no counsellors or whatever.

A child psychologist is more diagnostic, can prescribe, can use talking therapy. A child psychiatrist has a broader clinical training in mental health, can diagnose and prescribe, won't usually offer talking therapy themselves.