How would you have dealt with this?

[Saycheeseburgers]

DS 9 years old, constantly being nasty, unprovoked, to his little brother. So rude to myself and DH, silly back chat (eg this morning when I asked him if he’s ready for school - because I am fed up of telling him over and over to brush his teeth/get his shoes on - his response is “are YOU ready for work” in a horrible tone).

Walking to school today we see a friend from his class - he doesn’t have many friends and I can see why. I was chatting to the mum, he ignored his friend and he was walking in the middle of the road, I had to tell him twice to get on the pavement.

Walking to his class I see another friend so I’m chatting to that parent, he tried to interrupt me several times. When I left the parent he started walking deliberately away from me, when I tried to ask him what was wrong he says NOTHING so rudely, completely refused to speak to me, and went into school.

I’ve come home feeling like shit over how utterly crap our relationship is, but I don’t know what to do. I am constantly telling him off because he’s constantly picking on his brother or being rude. He gets the world, including special trips out just him and cuddly time on the sofa every evening when his brother is in bed. We are busy with work and clubs but I always offer to play with him when we’ve got a free minute.

Reading this back he clearly wants attention, but he gets SO much. A lot of it negative, because his behaviour is so bad, but I praise so much when I can.

I've got two with asd. May have adhd too but they were both very late diagnosed. One at 13 and one at 17.

They have a five year gap and they both rub each other the wrong way. So difficult

Really related to the bit in your post about no punishment/ consequences working too.

He does, he’s diagnosed with ADHD (not medicated, but that’s not my choice!) and I think very likely ASD too.

Then you need to rethink how you interact with him and how he interacts with the world.

I do agree with you, don't cancel the playdate. He needs social opportunities. Expect him to behave very badly afterwards because he will be people'd out. Keep his little brother out of the way until he's had plenty of recovery time.

You and DH need to have very different expectations for politeness comparing DS2 and DS1 because you don't suspect that DS2 has a communications disorder. Do not tell DS1 off for backchat. Use ignoring instead, or respond to the content and not the wording of what he says.

Look for a Speech and Language therapist who understands ASCs.

For ways of managing children who respond poorly to reward/punishment try "Explosive Child" It's more about violent outbursts than the kind of stuff you're seeing but some of the underlying causes and the management strategies are likely to be the same.

Though actually it sounds as if your reward strategy is working pretty well. But nothing is 100% effective for everything. I used a mix'n'match range of strategies from different sources.

Anyone can call themselves a psychotherapist or a psychologist, neither are protected titles.
Appropriately qualified counsellors and psychotherapists will be registered with a professionals body such as BACP or UKCP and most will list their experience and expertise.
Clinical psychologist and counselling psychologist are both protected titles and will have significant experience working with their client group.
When looking for a therapist, alongside being registed you'd need one who your child connects with, as nearly every meta analysis of efficacy of therapy highlights the quality of the therapeutic relationship as being the most important factor in achieving change.

Have a look at Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria. It very often occurs alongside ADHD. I would consider it the most challenging and damaging part of my dd's ADHD when she was younger.

She was so on edge, waiting to be hurt that she would always try and get in first with her scorn, harsh words etc. This, combined with her impulsivity and very quick wits lost her many, many friends. It was also very damaging to our relationship as I felt hurt and rejected (it's likely that I'm ADHD and rejection sensitive too).

@Littlefish DH has ADHD too (undiagnosed formally but the tick boxes are all there!) and I find the RSD aspect so challenging. We only ever fight because he overreacts to something I’ve said because he’s perceived it as criticism we’ve been together 20 years, it is criticism when I was just asking why DS isn’t in bed yet when it’s his turn to do bedtime. That sort of thing. It’s very hard.

Does it feel like RSD could be at the root of your ds’s reaction too?

Reactions sometimes yes @Littlefish , but so much of his bad behaviour is in response to nothing. He can go from acting normally to being a wind up so quickly. You might be right with the “are you ready for school” question though - that was me trying not to boss him around with all the individual things and also to help him think for himself a bit, scaffolding, but maybe his thought process was that I was pointing out that he wasn’t ready (which I was as well!) but that he took that so much worse than a NT child without RSD might.

'Are you ready for school' always felt like a massive demand for my daughter and would always end in rage and tears. How demand avoidant is your son?

He’s not really @Littlefish . Very much defiant, but not demand avoidant.

I think it’s quite hard to tell the difference between the two.

I think so yes @Littlefish . I tend to associate demand avoidance linked to PDA with anxiety, whereas defiance not so much. Not an expert though!

Defiance and anxiety are closely linked. If you're anxious/tense and you feel you're barely coping with what's in front of you then every new or unexpected thing feels like a potential challenge and your instinctive first reaction to any new demand (however mild or or polite) is "no". Having more time to mentally process the request (before it's blown up into a fight or running away or shutting down or silly behaviour) it can be easier to adjust to "yes". Giving a child some quiet time to think about it before insisting on a response can help.

"Explosive Child" is good on this.

I have to admit I hated the Explosive Child. It didn’t resonate all that much, but also it gave the impression of everyone having to bend over backwards to keep the “explosive child” happy. Maybe I should give it another read…! I know a lot of parenting advice for PDA is low demand but I don’t think that helps anyone as it does nothing to support resilience.

Yeah, doesn't work for everyone. I mixed 'n' matched "Explosive Child" with more mainstream approaches like "Incredible Years".

Explosive Child was my go-to when everything was going to shit and nothing else worked. It kept reminding me that I didn't know what my child could and couldn't do. A lot of things I assumed were a wouldn't turned out to be a couldn't. I always got further by (if in doubt) starting from couldn't and building up. What made it effective is that I could start with a very low bar (safety critical only in basket A, not much even in B because DC wasn't calm enough to negotiate, everything possible in basket C!) and then as things got calmer I could raise the bar. Resilience came with the (slowly) raised bar. For me the key was to remember it wasn't about happy it was about calm. Avoiding that agitated state where no thought was possible.

I also think it's a lot harder when you are trying to manage multiple children, I only had the one so I really could bend over backwards for as long as I needed to.

I think it's quite interesting that you didn't put ADHD in your OP. Someone on here pointed me to some interesting info once that one of the hardest things about having ADHD is that children with ADHD receive a LOT more negative feedback than NT children. I think it's really really important that you view his behaviour, and your responses, through the ADHD lens because that is a major factor.

Why is he not medicated? You say it's not your choice but thats vague - is there a real reason why he is not medicated or something like your DH doesn't want him to be?

Takign screens away for a week is, I have found, 100% pointless. Similarly, any sort of longer-term punishment. Rather, it needs consequences. And ideally, pre-warned consequences. Getting ready for school is a hard one to put in place an immediate consequence but it could be a reward - if you're ready on time, when I pick you up we will do x. For us consequences that work (DS is a bit older) are, for example, "DS, if you're not home when you say you'll be home, then next time, you won't be allowed out."

I often find that a consequence, especially for rudeness, that can work is a clear verbalisation that I will not engage or talk to him any further. "DS, I'm not discussing this. Put your shoes on and we're going." then ignore any further comments or attempts to provoke. Then find something normal and neutral to talk about once you have left the house.

I would also say with school readyness, children with ADHD are horrendous about this so the more you can get a routine in place, the better - DS has his clothes all laid out the day before. I used to do it, now he does actually scrunched up on the radiator but I'll take what I can . Also, it's pointless to ask them to do multiple things. So, "You've finished breakfast, go brush your teeth." Then 5 minutes later, "have you brushed your teeth? Good, come downstairs and put on your shoes". Must to my endless frustration, even now, I am often packing, or part packing, DS's bag for school but otherwise, he just doesn't get out the door on time.

Thanks @AmaryllisNightAndDay , yes additional children definitely add more complication. DS1 is actually pretty easy and compliant 1-2-1!

@MrSeptember the reason DS isn’t medicated is because the paediatrician he is under hasn’t agreed to it yet. He was diagnosed under a different paediatrician and now that I’ve asked for him to be medicated, the current Paed doesn’t think he needs it because the latest questionnaire from school suggests his behaviour in school is fairly good. His (the Paed’s) attitude is that medication is for school only. I disagree but I’m not in charge unfortunately. The decision is being considered, and I’m due a phone call to discuss, but I’ve been chasing this up since the beginning of August.

Thank you for your advice, I do agree about the immediate consequences/rewards those do tend to work ok, but as you say school mornings tricky, and rudeness very tricky. If I were to disengage and wait as you suggest, he would never be ready. As it is, I lay everything out, make his breakfast, pack his bag, bring his toothbrush downstairs and physically hand it to him with toothpaste on.

I don’t want to as I think it’ll cause other problems, but if it carries on I’ll have to bring in morning TV as an incentive for him to be fully ready. This morning he was actually dressed and lying in bed reading, around 7:15am, which obviously I praised him for as I hadn’t had to ask. But he still wasn’t ready to leave over an hour later and DS2 and I were yet again outside waiting for him - I would forgive this much easier if he was just scatterbrained but he’s so argumentative and defiant as well. Tempted to let him go to school without brushing his teeth and let his friends tell him he’s got bad breath!

Aah, that's tricky. Our doctor's view was that we medicate to manage whatever is tricky or wherever his ADHD is causing problems. So for us, it's anything that involves DS needing to be moving in a sort of set fashion - so school days, definitely, but also for example, if he's got a sports event on a weekend or I'd medicate if we had a long journey and needed to be on top of things. Also during th eschool holidays I insisted he take his meds a few times a week just to sort of reset and keep him balanced.

Basically we only don't medicate on days when there are no particular set plans or any need for a sense of urgency. To be fair though, DS was a bit older when he was diagnosed, so that might be part of your doctor wanting to go slow on medication.

I'd ALSO be having a really detailed conversation with school about whether he really IS coping. So, for example, in retrospect, DS was NOT coping at primary at all. But a lot of the more overt and annoying behaviours like rudenss, not getting things right etc, were not really present. At school it was more about him just missing what was going on in the classroom etc. The most obvious sign tha the wasn't doing very well was the fact that he was hugely behind academically across the board.

I ignore at least 50% of the rudeness. Mostly, I have some very hard lines that cannot be crossed - swearing, hitting etc. Some of the rest I might be ignoring it in that I'm not actively responding but he knows I don't appreciate it and that can be seen in my responses to him. The ignoring in itself is a "consequence" for him - he absolutely hates it. Also, he is motivated to be more mindful in the things he says and does by us being less accomodating when he's being particularly unpleasant. eg the other day I asked him to unload the dishwasher, he was rude AND refused, I ignored him. 5 minutes later he asked me to make him something to eat and before I could say a word DH said, "why would mum make you a sandwich when you ask when you wouldn't even do the dishwasher, your one chore, when she asked?" I had been about to say the same thing. And I'm starting to find this technique helpful with a nephew who is a bit younger but very similar. Especially as shouting is something they almost can ignore now.

Oh, and I should say that while I feel overall we are making progress and things are on track, I also want to reassure you that I spent a LOT of time completely and totally convinced nothing will ever improve. So that feeling of trauma is definitely still there, not withstanding my fairly rational responses on this thread!

Thank you so much for your helpful post @MrSeptember .

DS has a new teacher this year who I think will be stricter than the last few (he’s had lovely, warm and flexible teachers for the last 3 years) and so I might get a bit further with the medication…maybe. I would like to insist he is medicated well before he goes to comprehensive because we all know that will be another ball game altogether. FWIW my DH who is medicated does the exact same approach as you for DS, he almost never goes without it unless he’s having a day off sick or something.

Good advice about the rudeness, thank you. And thank you for the lovely words at the end of your post xx

Yeah, also, as he gets older, the expectations at school are higher and he might not be able to meet those. DD is NT, finds school easy (always in the top groups with the ones doing the extra work etc) ... and even she has been shocked at the bump from year 4 to year 5. And it's only going to get worse - they've had a temporary teacher who is on return from mat leave and who usually teaches year 1s so is super soft and cuddly. Their regular teacher has been on sick leave but is returning next month. She's fabulous, but has very high expectations so I'm looking forward to DD's shock!

The point is that they can get away with quite a lot and appear to be doing okay at school, when really, they're falling further and further behind. So good luck with pushing the doctor to give it a go.

Could a stop watch or sand timer help in the morning? We have a child who has lots of these things going on and awaiting a diagnosis. We found instead of having to say are you ready? Or you need to hurry up, a stop watch or sand timer gave him a personal challenge. Set it to get ready, set it to brush teeth, then again for breakfast and there was no confrontation. He actually really enjoyed it and gave him something to be proud of.

We have 6 kids, 4 are ashd/adhd or both :)
you cannot parent these kids the way you you would typical kids. We went thro hell with ours .
spk to school nurse, cahms and gp and look at parenting courses for Sen kids. It sheds a whole new light on his they think, how they are motivated. Obviously what you’re doing isn’t working, and that’s hard work.
you need to yell ;) for help , and out oressure on these services to step in x