AIBU to think that this isn't an okay way to deal with toddler tantrums?

[Miniope]

Needing the opinions of others as I am very close to leaving my children's dad over this.

DP and I have a 3 and 1 year old and he just can't seem to deal with them crying at all. Our 3 year old (she literally just turned 3) has not long started nursery this term. She never really used to have tantrums but since starting nursery she has been having some big ones fairly regularly, mainly when she's tired or hungry. I think this is normal development and I won't pander to her if she's demanding something (unless it's something reasonable and understandable) but I don't chastise her either because I think it's pointless. I think she needs support to learn to regulate her emotions. DP on the other hand sees this as being too soft and pandering to her. If she has a tantrums or cries loudly he will firmly and loudly tell her 'no!' or to stop. If he is holding her he will put her down on the spot in a horrible dismissive manner and walk away which just makes her more upset.

Since this has started she has also been waking a lot at night and coming into our bed. Once on our bed she will fall asleep again but often wake up screaming inconsolable. The only thing I can do is comfort her until she falls asleep again. I used to have awful nightmares that started about that age so I wonder this is the cause. DP, however, gets really annoyed and angry at this, in the last few weeks he has told her off for crying, stormed out the room to sleep on the sofa shouting at me that this is fucking ridiculous, and last night has tipped it all over the edge. She started to cry and scream, he initially was calm and got her a bottle of milk to see if it would soothe her but she continued crying saying she didn't want it. He then started to tell her off telling her that she was waking everyone up, eventually he got up and grabbed her from me sharply and carried her through to her room and dumped her there then walked away. By this point she was screaming in what sounded like sheer terror. I went straight through to her, taking the baby with me who had been woken by it all but was quite happy, he told me not to go through but I couldn't leave her like that. I ended up sleeping on her toddler floorbed with her and the baby. I know we'll need to work towards her spending the full night ij her own bed at some point and there might be some crying involved, but I don't think just grabbing her and dumping her is an okay way to do it.

He is a great dad in many other ways but it's like a switch goes off if they cry and he just can't handle it. For context, he grew up in a home with extreme domestic violence, his dad beat him and his mum on a regular basis, DP has never been violent towards us but I think it has skewed his own ability to regulate his emotions as well as his understanding of what is normal. I 100%believe he needs therapy but he refuses. We have discussed this and just end up arguing because he (and his mum) say that I'm too soft so I'm now at the point of being ready to walk because I don't want my daughters growing up being physically dumped by their dad when they are just being normal babies and toddlers. If he was prepared to go to therapy to work through it I would try but he's not.

So please tell me AIBU to think that this isn't normal or okay and could potentially be damaging to them or is he right and I'm just too soft?

I think there's an in between. You are potentially being too soft and he is going in too hard. There's a middle ground. The biggest issue is you're not coming from the same place. She will quickly be learning how to play you off against one another. The night time, she should be able to get in your bed and feel safe. The screaming would hit a nerve with me and that's something I'd really want her to learn to regulate and understand that she doesn't need to communicate that way. However, I wouldn't dump her and walk away.

You both just sound at the end of your tether and it won't work unless you both agree boundaries.

He needs to get therapy, do a parenting class or you leave. You're not being too soft, you are a totally normal parent.. His way of reacting is extreme and not helpful. I can see it likely does come from trauma but that doesn't make it ok. It's not his fault what he experienced but it is his responsibility to stop it hurting other people.

Your husband can't control his emotions but he expects your 3 year old to?

Meltdowns are scary children do not need shouting at. They need to know they are safe. Showing your child you care isn't being soft. It's teaching them they can trust you with their big feelings.

Bribing them/backing down is unhelpful as it reinforces the behaviour as a method to get what they want,

I'd have a serious discussion with your husband about his inability to manage his emotions and how he can overcome that.

@Highhland, I'm not sure it us helpful to give equal weight and validation to an opinion that is based on anger as that of actions that revolve around caring for the child.

It is a mistake that is made far too often in how parents and children are dealt with by authorities, to ignore that women and girls are socialised to be caring and men and boys tend to be socialised to centre their own wants and needs. Fairness and 50/50 opinion doesn't really work when one party is already centering someone else's needs and the other is centering fairness and perceived respect to themselves.

Ultimately, 50/50 from the same place is what I meant. What you describe isn't 50/50 from the same place.

What you describe from him doesn't sound abusive, but it does sound like he's right at the end of his rope and in combo with his traumatic family history I agree that therapy (or some other action) is needed.
Do you get time alone together? A calm chat about how he's feeling and discussion of strategy might be a good first step. I really understand not being able to bear screaming and constant crying from a child but he does need some calm down strategies for himself. Sleep can be key.

I think some of it may be different parenting styles and some may be he's at his wits end with the tantrums and not handling it well. I don't think it's wrong for him to say 'no' when she's screaming for no reason. You choose the path of least resistance by just ignoring the tantrums.

However, she can't help waking up in the night and crying if she's had a bad dream, so I do think he's behaving unreasonably here. (Is it a case of just a dream, or is it actual night terrors, which are horrible? If it's the latter, you can't do anything except wait out the screaming. Often they're not even awake when they're doing it, and trying to wake them or intervene makes it worse).

I agree with others that you both need some time together to talk about how to manage these separate issues.

What about parenting course even if he won't do therapy? I agree that it isn't good when you are not having the same approach as it can polarise to extremes - we have a bit of that in that I think my DH is too strict and I compensate and the other way round. Also I think some people can be totally awful with no sleep so agree with whoever said no point in both of you being awake (though appreciate that probably actually translates to you dealing with it). I think it can depend on the situation a little bit - you presumably wouldn't leave her to scream in a restaurant but take her out and explain we can't shout and scream like that and disturb others which you could also do at bedtime if it isn't night terrors in which case obviously not actually awake. Obviously calmly though and not in an angry way

Yours is one of the most balanced posts I think I’ve read.

His response is completely unacceptable but with his background there is a reason (not an excuse) for it.
Would he agree to parenting classes?

In your situation, it would be an ultimatum because you have to put the children first. Classes or he moves out.

Sorry to just be replying now. Thanks for all the responses.

To clarify, when I said that I ignore her tantrums, I probably didn't explain what I do well. I don't give her into trouble for having a tantrum but I will use a calm and firm voice and tell her she needs to speak to me calmly and not shout, sometimes I will model this for her and she will repeat calmly, mimicking my tone and words, although as she gets older I'm needing to model it less often for her. During the day it works the majority of the time, she will usually ask for what she wants in a calm way and depending on what it is sometimes I'll say yes and sometimes I'll say no but by that point, because she's calmed herself down a bit she's usually pretty accepting of it and will say something like, "OK, I'll maybe do it when I'm bigger". If she's very tired or hungry then she's more likely to continue to be upset. I don't have an issue with setting boundaries with her, it's how they are set.

Sorry if this is a drip feed but as well as starting nursery, there has been a lot of turmoil in our lives recently. We have a DSS who lives with us and his mum recently decided to stop contact with him which has caused him a lot of upset. Amongst this my grandmother who I was extremely close to and lived with for much of my childhood was in a hospice and then died. She lived quite a bit away so there was more travel back and forth for the wee ones than I would have liked but it was important that I got to spend that time with her. Her funeral was a couple of weeks ago and on the day of my 3 year old's birthday. As well as this my partner's working hours often meant that he wasn't home for bedtime but he has been able to get away earlier the last few weeks and so is there but it has caused some issues with the routine and timings which I think has added to the tantrums. I know that none of this is ideal and I just want to give them consistency and stability.

In terms of the parenting class, there's no way he would agree to this. When I have questioned it he has always said he's done this before (with DSS) and he has turned out well. I have messaged his mum to ask if she is free to watch the kids for an hour tonight so we can have a talk. I've not heard back yet though but hopefully she can so we can discuss this in depth because it definitely needs sorted or I'm gone.

Could it be night terrors? My DD had them, she screamed & cried, it almost was like a tantrum only it wasn't. Telling them off or shouting won't do any good if it's a night terror, you just have to be calm & quiet throughout them.

You are both struggling to come to a compromise and this is causing your dd to not understand boundaries. He is right to ignore her tantrums, put her down and walk away. She is seeking attention with them to get her own way so I understand why he is doing this. You seem to be appeasing her and that is allowing her to continue the behaviour he is trying to correct.
neither of you are unreasonable you just need to find a meeting Point on this.
please ignore the calls for divorce and stating he is an abuser - he is not.

YANBU, his actions are not okay, but equally I think this is huge lack of communication between the pair of you.

The screaming and crying, tantrums etc can be handled in a way that communicates that that is not okay, validates the emotion but holds a boundary. ‘I can see you’re angry/upset/tired and that’s okay, but we can’t scream/hurt other people/disrupt the whole house at night’.

Have you and DH discussed the in your bed bit? Me and DH agreed that we simply wouldn’t be having the children in our bed, it’s a personal boundary. I have slept in the children’s rooms when they have been really ill before but if nighttime disruption is frequent and you are all running on low amounts of sleep that won’t be helping.

Your DH needs to get help for his issues. There is likely to be huge amounts of unresolved trauma and I doubt he has ever had any help with emotional regulation meaning he now only has his own experiences to fall back on. I would seriously suggest some therapy.

Lots of good advice and you know what needs to be done.

Just wanted to say, you sound like a wonderful parent.

He sound utterly horrible. In what world does he think telling a crying child to just stop crying will do the trick?

If he was putting her down calmly and walking away I'd feel differently but it's very much a dumping (sorry, I don't know how to describe it).

You might have missed my update where I explained more how I respond to her tantrums, because I don't feel like I appease her. Sometimes she's upset over something that I'll tell her to ask calmly or model this for her and then say yes because it could be that she's gotten frustrated trying to do up a zip so once she's asked calmly I'll help her, sometimes it's cos she's tired and going to bed but decided she wants an ice cream and I'll still tell her to ask calmly but then say no.

I don't think he's abusive or going to hit me, but I do think he needs therapy. His immediate response to us having a disagreement is often shutting down as well although once he's had time to process and think it through then he can talk things through better, but even I struggle with it when he storms off from me, even if he often (but not always) does come back and talk it through later, but it must feel so much worse for a toddler and baby.

I don't know but I had wondered if it could be. She does kind of engage with you to say no to anything you say or ask of her but you can't talk her down the way that you can during the day and she will quickly escalate at night.

Yes, he doesn't want them in the bed and we were working towards that but DSS would often wake at night upset due to issues with his mum and could get quite loud as he would call through for DP, this would then wake the little ones and if I had them in the bed with me I could keep them calm and sleeping. It was maybe a lazy option but ironically I thought it was better than having 3 kids up crying through the night and trying to juggle them all.

Thank you. I just had a trip to sainsburys with two shattered children and was close to tears at one point so this is really nice to read. Both are now having a well needed nap.

To clarify from my end. I don't think he is abusive, but I think he is very much not coping and that isn't sustainable.

Dumping a child physically roughly in order to flee so that you don't need to listen to them screaming when they are having an age appropriate tantrum is not a helpful response.

Placing them somewhere safe calmly as a time out, or to gather your own breathing space is a different thing, and is usually followed up by some constructive input to the child. That's what makes it different.

I don't think you are pandering to your daughters tantrums at all, especially given your updates. I think some commentors are missing the point with that aspect.
The problem is that regardless of how you are handling the tantrums, your husbands behaviour is causing them to escalate which is obviously not even remotely helpful, but also appears extremely unkind at best.
Agree with a pp that he is an adult and his ability to manage his emotions should be far higher than a 3 year old. He is throwing the equivalent level of tantrums given the age difference!
There has been a huge amount of upheaval in your daughters life recently and kids are sensitive to changes because they don't have any context. You are doing the right thing supporting your daughter while she is struggling to understand.
I would be worried about separating and leaving him alone with your kids if he handles parenting challenges this badly.
My heart is breaking for your daughter, waking up scared and crying in the night and then being taken from your arms where she feels safe with no warning and being left alone in another room is so cruel.
Your husband needs therapy or things will only get worse.
The 'why are the kids in your bed' comments are missing the point that your husband can't manage his emotions well enough to parent your children appropriately and thinks that leaving them alone when they're upset because he can't handle it is acceptable.

Is it possible that the crying is triggering for him with his own past trauma?
I know someone who experienced a lot of abuse and simply cannot bear to hear a baby / child cry, even on TV. It seems to trigger a huge emotional and physical reaction.

That is no excuse for his unkind behaviour though. And yes I think your child needs support not telling off when she’s upset, especially at night.

“I would be worried about separating and leaving him alone with your kids if he handles parenting challenges this badly.”

This, OP.

If you separate he will get contact, including overnight stays. He will be free to treat them whatever way he sees fit and you won’t be there to mitigate that.

“I'm now at the point of being ready to walk because I don't want my daughters growing up being physically dumped by their dad when they are just being normal babies and toddlers.”

OP, if you walk, what will happen when he has them on his own for contact?
And overnights?

He sounds horrible. Agression is no way to deal with a child who is failing to regulate their emotions.

Hes making her feel unsafe which will just upset her more.