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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Paula Vennells was back in Phase 5/6 of the Post Office Inquiry and now we're at Phase 7 - thread 5

523 replies

nauticant · 23/09/2024 22:34

A continuation of this thread about the Post Office Inquiry:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5105378-paula-vennells-is-history-but-now-at-the-post-office-inquiry-is-fujitsu-distinguished-engineer-gareth-jenkins-thread-4

The Inquiry is at Phase 7 which is about how things stand now and looking to the future. Here's the timetable:

https://www.postofficehorizoninquiry.org.uk/phase-7-timetable

When the hearings are going on, live-streaming can be found here:

https://www.youtube.com/@postofficehorizonitinquiry947/featured

All of the previous hearings can be found here:

https://www.youtube.com/@postofficehorizonitinquiry947/videos

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Thread gallery
10
nauticant · 24/09/2024 20:39

One of the many interesting things from the evidence of the SPM NEDs over the past couple of days is that there's an organisation to support SPMs called Voice of the Postmaster (https://www.votp.co.uk/) which seems to be aiming to supplant the National Federation of Subpostmasters.

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Leverpool · 24/09/2024 20:44

Can someone give me a TL:DR pls?

is it coming to light that as recently as this year the PO have still been up to their smoke and mirror (lying) tricks and attempting to bring about more prosecutions?

minou123 · 24/09/2024 20:57

nauticant · 24/09/2024 20:39

One of the many interesting things from the evidence of the SPM NEDs over the past couple of days is that there's an organisation to support SPMs called Voice of the Postmaster (https://www.votp.co.uk/) which seems to be aiming to supplant the National Federation of Subpostmasters.

The NFSP are in trouble because it looks like the Voice of the Postmaster is starting to get more members than they have.

If I remember the evidence correctly, the NFSP still get £millions from POL

So if they lose thier members, no doubt they will lose thier financial gravy train.

Callum Greenhow released this statement after George Thomas was at the inquiry https://nfsp.org.uk/news/view?name=statement-from-nfsp-ceo-calum-greenhow-following-todays-evidence-at-the-horizon-inquiry

I think Callum will try to use the inquiry on Thursday to overhaul the NFSP public image and try to get SPMRs back.

Statement from NFSP CEO Calum Greenhow following today's evidence at the Horizon Inquiry

https://nfsp.org.uk/news/view?name=statement-from-nfsp-ceo-calum-greenhow-following-todays-evidence-at-the-horizon-inquiry

nauticant · 24/09/2024 21:18

The impression I got from watching today's evidence Leverpool is that the subpostmaster in question (an experienced businessman with resources to save his own bacon) accepted that there were discrepancies, accepted that he would need to meet with Post Office staff to discuss the matter, but the huge hassle it caused him was that what the Post Office reached for first was to treat him as a likely criminal, drag him into a quasi-Police interview with things stacked against him, and when they could see they had a live one on their hands who would make things very difficult, they retreated and allowed him to interact with reasonable people outside of the investigations branch with whom he could discuss and resolve the problem.

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nauticant · 24/09/2024 21:21

That was last year, and the final resolution came at the start of this year.

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minou123 · 24/09/2024 21:46

Leverpool · 24/09/2024 20:44

Can someone give me a TL:DR pls?

is it coming to light that as recently as this year the PO have still been up to their smoke and mirror (lying) tricks and attempting to bring about more prosecutions?

Im not very good at TL:DR, but yes, that's what is happening.

The longer version:
Elliot Jacobs was giving his witness evidence today.
Elliot is a SPMR, but he is also a non executive director on POL Board.

Out of the blue Elliot gets a letter from John Bartlett, who is the new Head of the PO investigation team.
(As a side note, the team has now been renamed to the Assurance and Comolex Investigations team)

It will shock and surprise you that John Bartlett is a former Police Officer.
I know, I know exactly what you're thinking "wow, POL are still hiring ex police officers into the investigation team, that has worked so well for them in the past".

The letter was shocking:
It says there was 2 issues
...1. A conflict of interest. I still dont fully understand this, but apparently they were not happy Elliot is a SPMR and on PO board.
...2 Shortfalls in his accounts.

1st, they asked Elliot to come in for a "meeting". But they soon gave up that pretence and reverted back to calling it an "interview".
2nd, they said it was a "voluntary" interview. But it's clear from the tone of the letter that there was nothing voluntary about this.
3rd, they said they will have a tape recorder to record the interview. They claimed it makes it easier to write up the minutes of the interview.
In my opinion, this is utter bullshit. The reason they are using a tape recorder is to scare the living shit out of SPMRs, as it makes the interview look like a formal Police interview.
4th, they said Elliot could bring a friend, trade union or lawyer. But under no circumstances can the other person speak during the interview.
Again, utter bullshit. They are not interviewing under caution, so whoever Elliot brings can speak to thier hearts content.
Again, they are using this tactic to try and scare the SPMR, make sure they have no support and give the false impression this is a "police" interview.

Anyway, Elliot is on it. He has read everything: the Bates vs POL court docs, the Hamilton vs POL court docs, watched the Inquiry, read Nick Wallis book, the lot.
He is still bloody terrified, but he is ready.

Elliot asks for all the Horizon data.
Of course, as is par for the course, John Bartlett is not happy to share it.
But worse still, Elliot finds out John Bartlett doesn't even have it.
Elliott asks the most obvious question ^"How do you know my Post Office branches have a Shortfall if you haven't even looked at the Horizon data?"

Elliot goes to the interview. He said it was just like a police interview. In fact John Bartlett and the other investigation kept calling the documents "evidence" and it was all numbered like you would see the police do.

In the end Elliott was referred to the Chesterfield office in which him and a POL accountant went through all the accounts.
Low and behold, there was no problems.
No conflict of interest
No shortfalls.

Here endeth my very long TL:DR 🤣

PerkingFaintly · 24/09/2024 21:49

I appreciated that too, @minou123 . Have the Brew of gratitude. Or something stronger if needed...

minou123 · 24/09/2024 21:57

Actually @nauticant summary is better than mine 😂

Long and short of it is the culture at POL and investigation team remains the same.
Same shit, different day.
SPMRs are a bunch of guilty, lying theivIng crooks and it is up to the SPMR to prove thier innocence.

Luckily for Elliot Jacobs, he is in a good position, as he is on the PO board and had money to hire people to help him.
Unfortunately, other SPMRs may not have the support, knowledge and money to get through an investigation.

minou123 · 24/09/2024 21:59

PerkingFaintly · 24/09/2024 21:49

I appreciated that too, @minou123 . Have the Brew of gratitude. Or something stronger if needed...

Thank you @PerkingFaintly .

I hope you are feeling better and getting lots of rest.

Sunpiercer · 24/09/2024 22:01

I did wonder if a ‘normal’ subpostmaster had the same issues as Elliot, would they then be allowed to meet with an operations director in a head office to talk through the figures. I think not! Surprised they didn’t ask that question I.e. what’s the normal protocol.

nauticant · 24/09/2024 22:03

My summary was pithy minou123 but your version had loads of interesting details I'd left out.

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PerkingFaintly · 24/09/2024 22:06

Oh that's a very kind thing to say, @minou123 , thank you. I'm chronically ill and missing out on stuff is just the way of the world, but I'm really appreciating these threads keeping me in touch with things.

I am keenly aware I am being very feeble compared to the SPMs. I absolutely take my hat off to any who are still even vaguely functioning after what they've been put through.

minou123 · 24/09/2024 22:13

Oh no, don't say that @PerkingFaintly , being chronically ill is horrendous and really takes it out of you.

Be kind to yourself.

Dont worry, I'll be here writing my drivel through Phase 7.😁
Hopefully it will keep you in touch with the mad, crazy world of the Post Office.

minou123 · 24/09/2024 22:50

Sunpiercer · 24/09/2024 22:01

I did wonder if a ‘normal’ subpostmaster had the same issues as Elliot, would they then be allowed to meet with an operations director in a head office to talk through the figures. I think not! Surprised they didn’t ask that question I.e. what’s the normal protocol.

Exactly.
My fear is the culture is so embedded, there is no protocol.

And the Post Office are hoping this will all blow over, and they can go back to business as usual.
And have already started to do this.

John Bartlett the new Head of the investigation team, is due at the Inquiry on 17th October.
I hope Jason Beer will be asking the questions
I suspect the overarching theme will be "what the fuck are you playing at?"

nauticant · 25/09/2024 12:14

Nick Wallis's blog on the first part of Saf Ismail's evidence on Monday:

www.postofficescandal.uk/post/board-member-spells-out-post-office-executive-dysfunction/

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Leverpool · 25/09/2024 20:14

minou123 · 24/09/2024 21:46

Im not very good at TL:DR, but yes, that's what is happening.

The longer version:
Elliot Jacobs was giving his witness evidence today.
Elliot is a SPMR, but he is also a non executive director on POL Board.

Out of the blue Elliot gets a letter from John Bartlett, who is the new Head of the PO investigation team.
(As a side note, the team has now been renamed to the Assurance and Comolex Investigations team)

It will shock and surprise you that John Bartlett is a former Police Officer.
I know, I know exactly what you're thinking "wow, POL are still hiring ex police officers into the investigation team, that has worked so well for them in the past".

The letter was shocking:
It says there was 2 issues
...1. A conflict of interest. I still dont fully understand this, but apparently they were not happy Elliot is a SPMR and on PO board.
...2 Shortfalls in his accounts.

1st, they asked Elliot to come in for a "meeting". But they soon gave up that pretence and reverted back to calling it an "interview".
2nd, they said it was a "voluntary" interview. But it's clear from the tone of the letter that there was nothing voluntary about this.
3rd, they said they will have a tape recorder to record the interview. They claimed it makes it easier to write up the minutes of the interview.
In my opinion, this is utter bullshit. The reason they are using a tape recorder is to scare the living shit out of SPMRs, as it makes the interview look like a formal Police interview.
4th, they said Elliot could bring a friend, trade union or lawyer. But under no circumstances can the other person speak during the interview.
Again, utter bullshit. They are not interviewing under caution, so whoever Elliot brings can speak to thier hearts content.
Again, they are using this tactic to try and scare the SPMR, make sure they have no support and give the false impression this is a "police" interview.

Anyway, Elliot is on it. He has read everything: the Bates vs POL court docs, the Hamilton vs POL court docs, watched the Inquiry, read Nick Wallis book, the lot.
He is still bloody terrified, but he is ready.

Elliot asks for all the Horizon data.
Of course, as is par for the course, John Bartlett is not happy to share it.
But worse still, Elliot finds out John Bartlett doesn't even have it.
Elliott asks the most obvious question ^"How do you know my Post Office branches have a Shortfall if you haven't even looked at the Horizon data?"

Elliot goes to the interview. He said it was just like a police interview. In fact John Bartlett and the other investigation kept calling the documents "evidence" and it was all numbered like you would see the police do.

In the end Elliott was referred to the Chesterfield office in which him and a POL accountant went through all the accounts.
Low and behold, there was no problems.
No conflict of interest
No shortfalls.

Here endeth my very long TL:DR 🤣

Perfect! Away with work and haven’t been able to keep up.

Thank you.

These jokers are literally unbelievable.

LlynTegid · 25/09/2024 20:17

This inquiry should be halted and prosecutions of Post Office management begin.

I am sure people could then give evidence from a prison where some of them belong.

nauticant · 26/09/2024 12:07

Today the evidence is from Calum Greenhow, Chief Executive of the National Federation of Sub postmasters (NFSP).

He comes across as a much less toxic individual than his predecessor George Thomson but his approach was to sit on the fence, for example over the GLO despite being aware that there were growing concerns with the Horizon system, and now, that that looks like a bad choice, he is re-writing the past somewhat.

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minou123 · 26/09/2024 12:49

Thanks @nauticant .

I am going to start watching after lunch.

Had a busy morning, having the most horrendous interview
(promotion, not Post Office investigation interview 😂)

I'm.looking forward to judging someone else's witness testimony, to make me feel better about the absolute drivel.i was saying this morning.

nauticant · 26/09/2024 12:55

Fingers crossed that the outcome of the interview is much better than the experience of it.

One warning about today's evidence is that it's waffly, and is less related to events than more compelling evidence. Although one highlight is the disappearance of the Grant Funding Agreement from the NFSP's website during the GLO.

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dewfirst · 26/09/2024 16:24

nauticant · 26/09/2024 12:07

Today the evidence is from Calum Greenhow, Chief Executive of the National Federation of Sub postmasters (NFSP).

He comes across as a much less toxic individual than his predecessor George Thomson but his approach was to sit on the fence, for example over the GLO despite being aware that there were growing concerns with the Horizon system, and now, that that looks like a bad choice, he is re-writing the past somewhat.

Yes, Nauticant , re-writing history indeed and that opening statement thanking Sir Alan Bates et al ….. nauseating.
Pity he didn’t pay any attention when it was needed .
Arse covering at its best !

minou123 · 26/09/2024 17:07

Absolutely @nauticant and @dewfirst .

I'm only 1 hour in and the arse covering is immense.
He seems to hang everything on the 1 email he sent to George Thomson in 2015, in which he queried if NFSP stance on Horizon was correct.

But he has spent the last hour talking about how he knew nothing about Horizon issues.

It's all very wishy washy so far.

dewfirst · 26/09/2024 17:45

I am also playing catch up and have to go out soon - reckon I will be watching this until very late tonight !

minou123 · 27/09/2024 01:22

I fell asleep 😁

Back up now and started to re watch Callum Greenhow.

He has made me very angry.

In 2016, Tom Mcormack told Callum of a bug, called the Dalmaillinton (sp?) bug, which was causing fake shortfalls for SPMR.
As it happens very shortly afterwards in 2016, a SPMR who was under investigation asked Callum to come to the investigation interview as his "union rep".

Callum has bleated on about how he spotted this shortfall was probably because of this bug and the piss poor the investigation etc.
The SPMR was sacked from the POL. Contract terminated. Lost his job snd livelihood.

What's really boiled my piss is Callum only contacted this poor SPMR after Sir Alan Bates won at the GLO in 2019.

He's now spent 5 mins wittering on about how it's disgusting this poor SPMR still hasn't had compensation and redress through the Conoensation Scheme.

But what has Callum.done to help this SPMR? Diddly squat all.
Callum is now the head, CEO, of the NFSP, he has the power to help this SPMR.
Callum.failed as the NFSP rep, to help this SPMR in 2016, so what's he doing now to help him?
Nothing, absolutely nothing.

I am quite cross.

minou123 · 27/09/2024 01:56

Ooh, a little glimpse into his true feelings has come through.

He is trying his best to come across as someone very concerned for the SPMRs and so happy the GLO trial has uncovered this miscarriage of justice.

Bit, he just let slip how very cross he is that Judge Fraser criticised the NFSP, some "people" have weaponised the GLO to attack the NFSP, and this has made his job very hard.

It's coming across like he just wants to move on and forget this all happened.