Women are encouraged to have vaginal births due to…

[Undkonm]

1. cost
2. because women are not treated like men in terms of pain management

I have read (and also strongly believe) that the nhs encourages vaginal births to save money. A consultant has recently come forward to say exactly this. It is appalling and women are still falling for the narrative that vaginal birth is the only real way to give birth.

Don’t get me wrong, I know there are huge risks with all medical intervention such a c section. But I know so many people who have ended up with an emergency c section and it’s been awful for them. In contrast, those I know (including myself) who elected a c section by choice had a peaceful and largely predictable birth.

This toxic narrative that birth is only birth if you give birth vaginally is another abuse of women. I am glad I had the insight and confidence to push for what was best for me. I know other women who desperately wanted a c section but were pushed around and didn’t get to have it elected.

When will this end? I should add that I also strongly believe women who want vaginal births should be absolutely supported but it should be an active choice to do that, not the expected ‘norm.’

Do others agree? Do you have other thoughts on this? To go one step further I think the abuse of women continues when the baby arrives with huge pressure to breast feed. Just leave women alone to make decisions that are right for THEM.

@vivainsomnia

I just don't think maternal requests for c section without medical advice are anything other than a symptom of fear around what maternity services are like.

I went into birth one as someone who was willing to give it a go and hoped for the best. And had an EMCS with a lot of blood loss, which I understand is a risk of induction and an EMCS as uterus is overstimulated.

Birth two, I wasn't prepared to do that any more, not least because the system was so binary - no one was prepared to admit that because I had a malpositioned big baby and no spontaneous labour the first time, it might not be as easy second time around as if I had had a natural birth first time around. There was little consideration of my individual circumstances and how likely I was to have a vaginal birth this time around. I knew that it would be a choice between going through the system assuming that it would be easy again because I was a healthy young-ish woman and getting little assistance to try to "succeed" or choosing a c section.

If not for Covid, I might have hired an individual midwife and brought them in with my husband. But it wasn't allowed and therefore I couldn't risk another bad labour and 3 days recovery from blood loss in hospital. I chose the section and was at home with my daughter and newborn son the next day.

Was I selfish? Or just pragmatic? My midwife at the birth choices session I had said she wasn't sure what she would do in my situation, especially given the pandemic.

Yes I have been in pain for years on end waiting for surgery that was cancelled time and time again. I paid to have it done privately in the end because the NHS is so poor.

That did not motivate to take my chances with a vaginal birth in the current hellscape that is inadequate maternity UK. It infact convinced me to go for the c section as surgeons are the only medical professionals I have ever come into contact with that have not fucked me up more. I know so many people who have had life changed injuries to themselves or their babies through vaginal birth and total lack of care that I want taking my chances thanks.

@vivainsomnia

(Btw, I also had a birth choices session with a junior doctor, as my trust required two sessions. My junior doctor gave me the general statistics on VBACs in the trust and I asked them what they would recommend in my position given my first birth. Doctor said "i can't give an individual recommendation as I haven't read your notes". Personally, I think this is a misuse of resources and a waste of valuable clinician time and I felt pissed off at the thought of someone who could be useful on a ward gaining valuable time with women having VBs spending their time on this - the community midwife could read me the general risks and outline the procedure in an appointment.)

I'm not entirely sure they do.

Yo keep trotting out the cancer card because you know it is provocative so give over on complaining about using provocative language.

Women with brain damaged babies from poorly managed births after being refused ELCS don't care about cancer patients. They care they tried to do what was safest for their baby and was denied because apparently there's nothing wrong with a vaginal birth, except when it goes wrong like it does a lot of the time. I'm betting people who want gastric bands and wegovy don't care about cancer patients by your judgement so go after them instead.

I really can't understand why you think women who have the right as per the NICE guidelines to request a c section, know their rights, and demand that they are honoured to protect themselves and their children is a problem.

I agree the misinformation on this thread is scary but the idea that doctor ls are always right is both stupid and dangerous in the arena of women's health, that's why women are fighting to be adequate treatment every day to the point where there's a national enquiry and it is publicly acknowledged women's health is a problem in this country.

You clearly won't see sense and this is getting boring. Enjoy your high horse where thankfully, you can't dictate that women don't get a say in their care.

That poster was correct earlier; the contempt and scorn for women - from some posters on this thread is horrific. It's coming either from men, or women who have never had a baby, OR women who were lucky enough to have an 'easy' birth
It's coming from people who understand how financially and clinically pressured the NHS is, and that although choice is important, doesn't prevail prioritising funding and efficiencies in services that need it the most.

Offering C-section to anyone as a preference rather than a clinical reason is just not a priority. It has nothing to do with being a woman Vs men, most senior maternity leaders are women who have children themselves.

Making it about scorn for women is such an easy argument when lacking understanding of health economics.

Good thing the NICE guidelines disagree with you.

I don't agree. A vaginal birth can be manageable pain wise without any assistance or intervention-certainly my two births were fine, with no complications. I didn't need any pain relief, not interested in gas and air and my second birth was so fast there wasn't time.

Yes labour is painful but not more painful I imagine than the recovery from surgery.

My only mistake was allowing a student to stitch me up after my first birth, a horrendous experience far more painful than the birth and this took a considerable amount of time to recover from.

Good thing the NICE guidelines disagree with you
It doesn't disagree at all when you read carefully the full document and the research it references!

Clearly those who quote NICE here only stop when they've found the one paragraph they think confirms their opinion! The fact it says it requires more research because they quoted a cost analysis undertaken in the USA, which has a completely different costing model, has clearly been conveniently ignored!

God there is SO much ‘I birthed vaginally just fine and so other women should be just fine too’

It’s disgustingly ‘I’m alright Jack’ and incredibly toxic to have this attitude. Not to mention wilfully ignorant of the absolute myriad of differences between women’s bodies and mindsets, the size and shape of the baby etc etc.

It’s a bit like saying I crossed a frozen lake and I didn’t fall in, so no one else will either.

@Peregrina I’m wondering the same. DS was induced, I was put on a drip and he was born vaginally in less than three hours. No stitches and I went home the next day. I assumed that’s how inductions were for everyone, but I’ve read some horror stories on MN. Something’s going wrong in some hospitals.

@FanofLeaves Why is it toxic? Some women do have fairly straightforward vaginal births, just as some people have uncomplicated C-sections and recover quickly.

Surely the questions we should be asking are why some Mums have a better experience than others? For a start, it definitely sounds as if people need more information on their birth choices and the possible outcomes.

There's a weird duality in NHS maternity whereby some feel medical intervention is forced upon them, and others feel they can't access the medical intervention they want

This. I am someone who underwent forced medical interventions without consent, and will never fully recover

The recommendations and their rationale are quite clear in that women should be allowed to make an informed choice. Just because someone makes a choice that may be more expensive (short term) or not what you would have made doesn't mean they've cherry picked the guidance. The recommendations even specifically say that a woman has a right to decline a section even if it would save their and/or their baby's life.

As I've said previously, due to my health complications I needed a section but had to force them to book it as they actively tried to discourage me. If the NICE guidelines weren't as such, I wouldn't have won and could have died due to their negligence. I am all for women making informed choices even if I don't agree with them and we need this guidance to protect us in doing so. Personally, I find the "health economics" argument rather reductive in this sense.

@okydokethen

I was induced with a back to back baby and the pain was far worse than my eventual c section recovery (for which I was down to ibuprofen or paracetamol within a few hours - didn't even touch the sides in induction). By contrast, I had braxton hicks second time around and I would say I have had worse period pain. I think this is part of the issue with birth - people assume their experience is what all women feel.

Yes but if you read this thread there are definitely posters saying this in a way that is toxic. FWIW I had a ‘good’ c sec recovery but I’m not using my experience to say that all other women should be able to recover quickly too and pretend to not understand why they might have an experience more difficult than mine.

I had an emergency section and an elective section. Both were very positive experiences. Pain relief was excellent - too good actually, so that I ended up overdoing things after my second.. I don't really get people talking about how awful the recovery time is - actually taking things easy should be normal however you give birth. Its a good thing to slow down.

Breastfed both my babies within hours of giving birth.

People I know who had poor birth experiences and aftermath had vaginal births - and that included some truly traumatic experiences.

If you want one for no reason...pay for it.

Who wants one 'for no reason"??.

@Smurf1993, mentioning cancer is not provocative, it's the reality that it is one of the most costly NHS treatment. That's why I mentioned it, but again, typical here to try desperately to twist things around!

I agree the misinformation on this thread is scary but the idea that doctor ls are always right is both stupid and dangerous in the arena of women's health
But it's not what I said, isn't it! Again, twisting words conveniently. I didn't say a doctor, I said Medical/clinical staff/experts, ie. a group of experts rather than one doctor. Oh and why trusting blindly a doctor would only be a concern in the arena of women's health as opposed to all health?

You clearly won't see sense and this is getting boring. Enjoy your high horse where thankfully, you can't dictate that women don't get a say in their care
There is no sense to see. Everything I've said I've supported with evidence that was properly read unlike so many here.

Just a final point. Do posters know that hospitals do NOT have to legally follow NICE guidance and that they are for recommendation only? The only guidance that have to be adhered to legally are TAGs -Technical Appraisal Guidelines, which the guidance on cesareans isn't. Another fact I expect the 'experts' on MN are probably going to challenge for the sake of it because what they don't like to read can't possibly be factual!

Same here!

@lemonstolemonade

It's not about being alright Jack. It's about also being allowed to share your experiences which aren't negative. There's so much scaremongering of first time mothers, someone's always ready to tell them the worst parts. It's also ok to say the pain was manageable.
I say this as having experienced significant birth trauma with my second child - but this was not about the pain.

I don't agree it's a money saving initiative, I think there's is obviously a huge lack of money and resources for more support around birth plans, preferences and home births BUT in the UK we have far better maternity healthcare than many countries. I always felt fortunate I could call the maternity ward day or night for support or advice and that is a privilege denied to many.

Sorry that was

@FanofLeaves

Again though, that’s very subjective. From my experience, I wish there had been more ‘scaremongering’. I was tempted to go with an elective after hearing of several friends having bad experiences but got drawn into the whole idea that if I remained very active, healthy, thought positively etc all would be fine. It really wasn’t, and despite all the talk of pain relief options in antenatal classes, I wasn’t able to have anything except gas and air, even during induction, back to back labour, forceps. It’s great that some people have wonderful birth experiences but framing it in terms of positivity v scaremongering isn’t helpful.

I was induced (he was so late) and back to back but I really didn't want a c section. Not because I wanted the birthing experience or I believe it's the only way to do it but because I knew recovery from a c section is much harder and my ex was a twat.

I was prepped just in case and maybe because it was a university hospital they took things alot more seriously once they believed me I was so overdue.

@okydokethen

I think it it fine for people to say that they have had positive births or positive sections, just as people have very painful births and very painful sections. The only thing that annoys me is the generalisation from what one person experienced to what everyone experiences or can cope with.

I get annoyed when people say "I've had an amazing birth, pain was totally manageable, I don't understand why anyone would even contemplate major surgery", because it fails to appreciate that there are some women who might read that who have really long lasting birth damage or a very different birthing experience through no fault of their own (kind of like when people talk about beating cancer as if it is something that is about strength of mind). No issue with saying "I had an amazing birth, pain was totally manageable, it definitely does happen for some women. There wouldn't have been any point in me personally having a section". I think that is a good thing for people to hear.