Women are encouraged to have vaginal births due to…

[Undkonm]

1. cost
2. because women are not treated like men in terms of pain management

I have read (and also strongly believe) that the nhs encourages vaginal births to save money. A consultant has recently come forward to say exactly this. It is appalling and women are still falling for the narrative that vaginal birth is the only real way to give birth.

Don’t get me wrong, I know there are huge risks with all medical intervention such a c section. But I know so many people who have ended up with an emergency c section and it’s been awful for them. In contrast, those I know (including myself) who elected a c section by choice had a peaceful and largely predictable birth.

This toxic narrative that birth is only birth if you give birth vaginally is another abuse of women. I am glad I had the insight and confidence to push for what was best for me. I know other women who desperately wanted a c section but were pushed around and didn’t get to have it elected.

When will this end? I should add that I also strongly believe women who want vaginal births should be absolutely supported but it should be an active choice to do that, not the expected ‘norm.’

Do others agree? Do you have other thoughts on this? To go one step further I think the abuse of women continues when the baby arrives with huge pressure to breast feed. Just leave women alone to make decisions that are right for THEM.

As long as it will be safe and the outcome a reasonably healthy mother and child. The point of midwifery is to produce that result. There is a lot of evidence that slavish adherence to vaginal birth is best whatever the circumstances, led to the scandals at e.g. Salisbury hospital.
Breastfeeding I am in favour of. It is one of the most satisfying things I have ever done. But if bottle-feeding is best for you, that is your absolute right and no-one should criticise you.

For those reading this getting more and more worried about deciding which to choose, I'd recommend reading Appendix A, under paragraph 11.4 of this document:

Perfectly safe means nothing can go wrong. Something can always go wrong with a vaginal birth, which makes it not perfectly safe. That is a fact and the most simple way it can be explained.

I'm not fanatical, I'm a senior biologist that works in health care research and sees nature get it wrong every day. It's the vaginal birth fanatics that are running riot here.

We don't need one versus other. We need good maternity and post maternity care. Informed choices. Proper preparation for birth - I had an amazing midwife discuss with me for nearly two hours active birthing for one of my dc. How breathing can help. How to cope with contractions. How different positions can help etc. I felt informed and much more positive. Every women should have that

Perfectly safe means nothing can go wrong. Something can always go wrong with a vaginal birth, which makes it not perfectly safe.

Perfectly safe means nothing can go wrong. Something can always go wrong with any birth, which makes it not perfectly safe.

There’s no such thing as a perfectly safe birth.

Exactly, but some are safer than others. And elective c section has been shown to be the safest in lots of research.

It's really not worth arguing about because there's literally research freely available to read that shows this is a fact.

I had 2 x ELCS not on the NHS. To the anti-ELCS crowd, are they allowed if you pay for them yourself? Or do you disapprove on principle?

The baby inhaling meconium happens if the baby goes into distress, it is a known risk of induction or augmentation of labour.

And the prize for entirely missing the point of the discussion goes to…

The vast majority of women I know who has a C section did it because it was safer for their baby.

Yet not the statement about their conclusions on the costs. Funny that, what with their view not suiting your narrative. Unlike you, NICE know what a bad idea it is to ignore the downstream costs.

And there is no way you quoted NICE saying that this is the range of costs for all attempted VBs and EMCS. You've misunderstood. NICE have not said that the most expensive EMCS is only ever £6945 and VB £3806 with no other costs associated at all.

"I don't really agree that modern women aren't designed to have vaginal births, many can with proper care"

So you don't believe in evolution? The point is that we were not DESIGNED for anything, because we were not designed. We evolved. Even quite strict Christians accept this ffs.

@vivainsomnia

See assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/66a0c996fc8e12ac3edb0374/nhs-resolution-annual-report-and-accounts-2023-to-2024-web-accessible.pdf

If you read this report around page 72, the NHS paid out £2.8bn in maternity care negligence in 24/24. Almost all of it, £2.5bn is in relation to CP and brain damage claims. Which will predominantly (almost exclusively) be from failed vaginal birth, even if an EMCS has been attempted too late. It is very rare for a child to be brain damaged by CS and clearly not responsible for very much of the £2.5bn. It is a rational decision for some women - eg those who have gone to 42 weeks and are being persuaded to induce because they haven't gone into labour naturally and/or those with large or badly positioned babies - to decide not to take their chances in the current understaffed and coercive environment. It might not be the one that you would take, but it should be the case that the NHS improves triaging in birth settings (ie no gatekeeping by midwives) and focuses on giving proper care to women before demonising women who are understandably worried. It would also be much cheaper! Triage is what very many other countries and many U.K. private settings do much better than the NHS, which results in much less negligence and more satisfactory birth outcomes.

I agreed to be induced at 37+5 because baby was small and had reduced movements.

The induction failed - I didn't dilate or go into active labour at all. My options were start again (after 3 days of nothing) or opt for a c-section. After hearing horror stories of emergency sections (usually after inductions involving every intervention under the sun before failing later on), I decided to opt for the CS.

It was a great experience - I was up and about after 20 hours and home after 30. I probably rushed because the postnatal ward was horrendous and I just wanted to get home, but I didn't need anything stronger than ibuprofen/paracetamol and was out walking after 2-3 weeks.

Would I have loved to go vaginally? Yes. I would like to try for a VBAC next time, but in my particular case I went for the option that gave me more control, and it paid off. I advocate any mum to do the same.

You say you want people to leave women alone but then say they should be given the option of invasive surgery, which is it?

You don't have the right to have unnecessary surgery on the NHS.

Vaginal delivery is statistically better for the baby and the mother. C-sections are sometimes necessary and they are provided in those cases.

Some amazing attitudes on display on this thread. How dare women have opinions about what happens to their body. How dare women express an opinion on the balance of risks and benefits including wider biopsychosocial considerations. Not very aligned with the NHS values.

Statistically, vaginal delivery is better for some babies and c-sections are better for other babies.

It is not about what every poster thinks is best, it is about allowing women’s health to be dictated by cost more than other unisex health decisions. And less focused on comfort to the patient as well.

Most tax funded health decisions are dictated by cost when the outcome of the cheaper option is the same as the more expensive one.

I completely understand. I hope all goes well with the next C section. Congrats on your baby, btw.

Two horrendous experiences of attempted vb, one emcs and one ‘too late for that, scissors and forceps it is, then baby nearly died, week in neonatal. Planned cs would have been so much cheaper and less traumatic all around. And all because some smug and patronising obstetrician decided my extensive lower back surgery (inc pins) would make no difference. What idiots.

There is no way I would opt for anything other than an elective these days when Labour wards are so chronically understaffed. Attempting a vb is just dangerous. It’s a risk I’m not prepared to take.

The vast majority of women I know who has a C section did it because it was safer for their baby
You're right, you definitely win with that medical statement!

If you read this report around page 72, the NHS paid out £2.8bn in maternity care negligence in 24/24. Almost all of it, £2.5bn is in relation to CP and brain damage claims. Which will predominantly (almost exclusively) be from failed vaginal birth, even if an EMCS has been attempted too late
And if YOU read my post, I have actually provided more info on this. However, as I wrote, this doesn't in anyway support an increase in C-sections. What it demonstrates is the fundamental need for better trained midwives, a higher ratio of midwives to patients and better access to expert obstetrics consultants.

And there is no way you quoted NICE saying that this is the range of costs for all attempted VBs and EMCS. You've misunderstood. NICE have not said that the most expensive EMCS is only ever £6945 and VB £3806 with no other costs associated at all
I never said I got the costs from NICE. I got it from the publication of NHS HRG codes. Something that probably means nothing to you.

This thread is like so many that go the same way. A few feminists who are all about shouting women entitlements, who think they know matters from research they don't understand, that is if they even bother to read it all
Oh, or picking research that has not substance from a science research perspective but love to use as supportive evidence of what they so desperately want to be right to suit their agenda.

I leave you to it!

Most tax funded health decisions are dictated by cost when the outcome of the cheaper option is the same as the more expensive one

That's statement is much too sensible to be assimilated here!

Which is hilarious because it's not even true!

It's all the fault of Feminists who don't understand research.😂

It's a well known fact that there are no risks attached to major surgery.

🙄