to think that ALL men must engage with male VAWAG

[StellaGreen]

These last weeks the papers are full of horrific stories of men's violence towards women. I have always believed it is a tiny minority of men who commit these crimes but I'm not so sure any more.

1. Gisele Pelicot case where at least 80 men were involved in rape and now an associate of the husband (Dominique Pelicot) has admitted to similar abuse.
2. Puffy daddy accused of sex trafficking I believe, I've not fully read this one.
3. The Olympian Rebecca Cheptegei allegedly killed by her partner after he doused her in petrol and set her on fire. It's not as though this was unique Olympian murder, Agnes Tirop was fatally stabbed by her husband in 2021 and Demaris Mutua (a runner) also killed within six months of Agnes.
4. Kristina Joksimovic from Switzerland where the press crudely wrote about her being strangled and her body being pureed in a blender.
5. Moumita Bebnath, the trainee doctor brutally raped and murdered in Kolkata in August.
6. Steven Van de Velde competing in the Olympics for Netherlands after he was convict of rape I believe.
7. Huw Edwards
8. And three weeks ago it was reported that women have been banned by the Taliban from speaking or showing their faces outside the house.

AIBU that, as well as women speaking up, all men must engage with this problem. It is not women's responsibility to solve the problem of male VAWAG

I'm starting to feel I'm a bit precious about my head boy/head girl thing. I have enjoyed seeing all the boys in the food tech pictures!

You're part of the problem. Stop pandering to men.

Actually, education and mental health, proportionally, women are NOT in more leadership roles - or at least, not in education where I've actually looked into the numbers. So while yes, as a percentage, there are more women in leadership roles in education, when you compare the percentages of women in leadership roles compared to their prevalence in these professions, men are still dominating. I cannot remember the stats (I actually put them on MN once so might be able to find them) but to give you an example, the sort of thing I'm talking about is for example, women make up 75% of the teaching population but only hold 60% of leadership positions. From memory, this was particularly prevalent at secondary schools.

No, the 1 in 4 stat is abuse by intimate partners or domestic abuse. Sexual assault is also committed outside relationships, and it's estimated that approximately 83% don't report, so we don't know the statistics. However worldwide, it's estimated to be 1 in 3 women.

It's fucking exhausting isn't it?

What men need to be doing:

1. If you have boys, start early on and teach them about consent and challenging other boys when they are nasty to girls, teach them to recognise misogynist language and to say it's not okay and challenge it. Teach them to step in and don't be a bystander. Self defence classes wouldn't go amiss here because yes, there will be bigger boys, and sometimes they get physical.
2. If you have girls, ALSO enrol them self defence classes. I get that some girls might not want to, but given the circumstances in which we find ourselves, it's a good idea to enrol them in such classes.
3. Stand up to misogyny and shitty behaviour in your own friend and family circles. Don't back down, stand your ground. If someone keeps being problematic then make sure they know that their behaviour is unacceptable and keep challenging them. Actions have consequences, men need to see that. If other men in your circles go quiet and don't say anything, challenge THEM too. Silence is complicity. If you don't feel you can broach things with them, then you're part of the problem and probably need to find better friends.
4. If you're on any kind of social media, challenge misogyny where you see it. If you're on social media that allows the creation of groups, create a group where you work with other men to educate them on the importance of standing up for women and girls, and make it known that just being a decent bloke is not enough. You have to stand up and challenge, be active with your work. Work on dousing crap like not all men and but I'm a nice guy! because women and girls can't afford to take your word for it.
5. Encourage the reading of feminist literature, and make sure it's from sources that aren't just straight white women. Share these things in those groups and chats.
6. If you're not on social media, then talk about these things in person with your friends and family. LISTEN to women and girls. Ask them what would make them feel safe.
7. If you see something happening, SAY something. DO something. Bystander apathy is rage inducing. If there is a weapon involved, then call the police. If it is in any way violent, call the police. Don't ignore it. If you're in a position to record something happening with your phone, DO SO because that footage might help put a violent man away.
8. Don't be a coward.

Might add more later.

Whether it's a majority or a minority, one thing is for sure; violence against women has massively skyrocketed over the last few years. I believe that comes from disrespect. Violence against women stems from disrespect of women. Womens rights, womens need and rights for single sex spaces, and mens anger that they should be excluded from our spaces. Their need to destroy any space or sport or category we have. The hatred of women, the sheer palpable venom can be seen and heard from men any time women rally for our rights. Threatening to rape us, skin us (yes, sadly), to burn us alive, to rape us til our uterus bleeds, to knife us. They arrive with (confiscated on these occasions) a bag full of knives, and a molotov cocktail. They arrive with baseball bats.

Never at any time has the lack of chivalry and lack of respect for women and girls as the vulnerable sex class needing protections and rights been more obvious. Violent rhetoric leads to violent action. Never at any stage in history have women been more at risk from male violence.

Who knew that disregard and disrespect for women as a sex class would lead to increased assaults against women.

It's linked.

ALL men, ffs, give your head a wobble.

Yes ALL men.

I think that assumption is to put it mildly a little silly.

What's silly?

Why? All men need to play a role in helping to change society. to be honest, so do all women. Obviously. But realistically, men are likely to have more power to make these changes.

I misunderstood. I thought OP was saying all men engage in VAW.

Men say one thing and then wank to content from the most degrading woman-hating industry out there. They are full of it. Don't expect anything from them and you'll be much happier.

Good. That's settled then.

We do need more acknowledgement that pornography is a major part of violence towards females. Far too many people pretend it's somehow morally acceptable to objectify women, or to pretend there's no link between objectifying women and seeing them as less than equal humans over whom males have rights.

I couldnt agree more.We need to change the general viewpoint in society on pornography.
The stats figures and facts are all there on how harmful it is. But as a estimated 97 Billion pound industry its tough to get them out to the wider public. I'd happily see it banned but I'm aware that would cause other implications unfortunately so not a easy fix.

I counsel porn/sex addicts and betrayed partners. This particular addiction recovery is one I would actually reccomend all men do. Honestly parts I'd reccomend all humans do. Part of the recovery is heavily based on integrity abuse and empathy.

I can understand the point on leadership roles largely being men in some fields like government and finance, much as in education and mental health leadership is largely women - but the UK is a country with a significantly majority White population so any equitable balance of leadership would still be mostly White here.

Who brought race into it? Marjority white isn't the issue here. Majority men is. And as pp said: in jobs/professions where there are a lot of women (teachers, nurses) you will often find men come in and then move up through the ranks swiftly (for many reasons) and women are doing all the grunt work while they are "managing"

Here's everyday sexism. I was in the army a long time ago. In a job and a place that was vastly majority men. We did all the things they did including guard duty, going out on exercise for weeks on end, sweeping leaves etc etc. There was a lot of overt sexism. Often a lot of groping there was sexual assault the works.

Now we're all in various fb groups and once one of the chaps said "well we were ok, you lot never complained, did you?" and we all said "fuck no you weren't fine and we did complain. A lot. And everything was ignored, swept under the carpet or we were 'managed out' or just made out to be liars"

And believe me, it didn't go down well. But we were ALL (women) saying it, and reminding each other, in the groups "remember x when y..." until they just all told us to stop.

That is what we're up against.

Part of me wants to say fuck it, why bother when it's making me this tired.

Then the stubborn, angry part of me thinks fuck it, I'm not prepared to let them win anymore!

But are their friends/colleagues/team mates? And do they tolerate it, passively or otherwise?
🙄 all you like, but if they do, they, yes your precious family males, ARE part of the problem. And by refusing even to countenance the idea, so are you.

@YellowphantGrey I don't want to depress you but I am back from the school visit.... Prospectus does not have "note from head boy/girl". BUT... both spoke at the event. The girl was listed first, and spoke first.

Small things, but I'll take them.

DD LOVED the school too so that's a win.

Take those victories!!! I am glad that she loved the school as well. Definitely makes the transition easier

Exactly. It is exhausting, not so much about the men but the women who can’t see that all men need to play their part. The example I gave of my Dad crossing the road if he is walking behind a women and it’s quiet, yes he is a decent man, but the woman he would be walking behind doesn’t, so when he crosses the road that woman would feel a bit safer. I wouldn’t say to my Dad not to do that because he is a decent bloke. A small thing can make a huge difference.

Imagine you are a woman, walking through town late at night, a little bit drunk. You are stumbling around and feeling a bit sick so you stop. A man comes up to you, a decent man, and is in your space, asking if you are ok, trying to help you. You don’t know he is a decent man so you are a bit scared. Alternatively If that decent man recognised that you might be a bit scared they would perhaps not get too close, ask if you are ok from a distance and if they can call someone for you, and you feel a bit safer because he isn’t getting in your space and offering a solution that doesn’t involve being up close. Both situations are decent men trying to help, but in the second one the man is aware of the genuine and reasonable fear that woman might feel in a situation where they are vulnerable.

But apparently its too much to ask men to do this.

There's a thread at the moment about going out for lunch alone and there's a couple of women saying they happily go out and eat get put off if men start bothering them.

Then there's a few more women posters insisting it doesn't happen, that they go out and their daughters go out and they've never been harassed by men amd how hot do these women think they are