to think that ALL men must engage with male VAWAG

[StellaGreen]

These last weeks the papers are full of horrific stories of men's violence towards women. I have always believed it is a tiny minority of men who commit these crimes but I'm not so sure any more.

1. Gisele Pelicot case where at least 80 men were involved in rape and now an associate of the husband (Dominique Pelicot) has admitted to similar abuse.
2. Puffy daddy accused of sex trafficking I believe, I've not fully read this one.
3. The Olympian Rebecca Cheptegei allegedly killed by her partner after he doused her in petrol and set her on fire. It's not as though this was unique Olympian murder, Agnes Tirop was fatally stabbed by her husband in 2021 and Demaris Mutua (a runner) also killed within six months of Agnes.
4. Kristina Joksimovic from Switzerland where the press crudely wrote about her being strangled and her body being pureed in a blender.
5. Moumita Bebnath, the trainee doctor brutally raped and murdered in Kolkata in August.
6. Steven Van de Velde competing in the Olympics for Netherlands after he was convict of rape I believe.
7. Huw Edwards
8. And three weeks ago it was reported that women have been banned by the Taliban from speaking or showing their faces outside the house.

AIBU that, as well as women speaking up, all men must engage with this problem. It is not women's responsibility to solve the problem of male VAWAG

Know, I know, but the plural "you" includes women! .

My point is that we all keep doing what we're talking about on this thread - call out the behaviou rfrom the minor to the major. Don't be part of the problem. Work towards reaching a tipping point.

I'm going to go make dinner now. My rage and fury is taking over this thread and I'm sure it's not helpful. I'm just so so tired of seeing and hearing these terrible stories.

It seems very clear to me that most men who commit terrible acts against women/girls start with smaller acts, and that before those acts there were misogynistic comments/'jokes' etc. I am convinced that, although clearly not every boy/man who takes part in 'banter' goes on to abuse women it is part of the culture that allows some men to think that abusing women is OK or can be excused. We know that these sort of men will not listen to women telling them that their words etc are not OK. We know that they don't listen too much if some men tell them that. But if all the good men, who don't think this shit is OK spoke up to their colleagues, mates, sports teams etc it just might change things.

I also find it hard to understand how good men don't take it as a personal insult when people make excuses for other men's bad behaviour by suggesting that it is just a fact of life/'boys will be boys'/'all men would'/'she must have led him on' etc etc. I know that there will be times when speaking up is not safe, but I have heard men at work making these sort of excuses in general conversation and find it hard to get my head around why none of the 'good men' who have heard them don't say 'actually Colin, that's bollocks, it doesn't matter what she was wearing or how many other men she had slept with before if she said no that's the end of it'.

I am pleased to be married to a man who does speak up and I know that some men don't like it, but surely that's all the more reason for more of the 'good' men to say enough's enough. He is involved in a traditionally very 'manly' sport and all the people running it (some women but also some very large men) challenge sexist/misogynistic comments and unsurprisingly the younger boys/men tend to follow their lead.

IdLikeToBeAFraser

I wholeheartedly agree. Sick to death of "good" men saying, well I'm not like that so I don't need to do anything.

Like you I will keep on and on. Just like I have had to keep on and on being wary of men my whole life. Sexually assaulted, groped, cat called. You name it, I have experienced it.

Why the insistence on typing 'VAWAG'?

It's 'violence against women and girls'.

It only takes a few seconds to type and just kind of 'lessens' what you're trying to say if you can't be bothered to do it.

I think all men and women should want it addressed.

The women I know who've experienced DV (I realise that's not the only form of VAWG) encountered women as well as men who dismissed or enabled it.

I've also seen victim blaming posts from women on MN - sometimes not intentional victim blaming but probably due to the commonly pushed narrative that the victims "just need to find strength to leave" or "can't cope with being single", when the real issue is lack of financial and other practical support.

The thing is with VAWG - especially but not only DV, it doesn't happen in a vacuum. It happens within general society and can't be isolated from more general problems - like the shortage of social housing, non supportive benefits system, failing health and social care and other support services.

If people want tackle and reduce VAWG, they need to advocate for addressing those more general societal issues.

I always thought this song was particularly unhelpful. The patio being on fire, the rain being too much and the long winters - all well and good, but leave the bit about wanting to kiss her completely out.

Sorry what does VAWAG mean?

Violence against women and girls

@JohnTheRevelator It means Violence Against Women and Girls

( I don't know why that term is used actually, because male children are also frequently victims - especially with domestic violence and child abuse cases).

Beyond boys as well. Male violence is a big societal problem, and men are rather more often the victims, I believe. So the problem of demanding that non-violent men sort out violent men is that you think it’s talking about one male ‘class’ (in Feminist terms), but men are a set of tribes, really, and often the other tribe seems entirely alien to our own understanding of masculinity.

As a mother of 2 young men and a loving male dp I used to always jump to defend (men) and say, but not all men are like THAT. Now I'm just so depressed that a lot of men seem to have regressed to pre 1950s behaviours.
Really worrying times, 😥

(There’s a smaller example of this, in which men are told to call out the sexist joke in our group chat etc. I always think ‘if someone made that sort of joke in my social media group, I’d think someone had hacked their login’)

We're not really talking about individuals sorting out male violence and endemic misogyny. We need seismic change backed up by law and timely intervention.

I'm beginning to despair. A friend of mine teaches boys about this kind of topic, and the things he hears are shocking. The attitudes to women at that age are scary.

Because they are all in happy, equal relationships with women? And I know this because I know my family and their partners. 🙂

Not every man is evil...🙄

Where are they getting those views?

I voted yabu

vecause whilst it is for men to address , I suddenly realised that if I were to speak about these things to the men I know in real life, I won’t know if I’m talking to an abuser, a rapist, a paedophile.

Presumably at home, and from the 24/7 porn on their phones. The likes of Andrew Tate are like a social cancer too.

This. And realistically, it won’t affect them until we make it affect them. And I think the only way to do that would be to collectively remove ourselves and our daughters from male society until something changes. We won’t ever all be on board with that though, and if we- the 50% who are actually at risk- aren’t prepared to take drastic action, it’s not realistic to think that they will.

From their parents? So their parents are filling their heads with woman hating bile? Yes Tate is a scourge but apparently the government are going to treat him and incel ideology as extremism.

Probably from other boys as much as anything. They see their fathers' attitudes to women as well. There have been countless stories on here about husbands and their attitudes to women. I wonder what boys pick up from these home environments.

IMO one of the biggest things men can do it stop watching porn. And ensure their kids don't have access to it.

Too many kids have unlimited unfiltered internet access in the palms of their hands 24/7 because their parents put it there. Young boys are learning how to do sex from online porn and young girls are learning how to perform as sexual objects for boys. It's leading to young girls increasingly presenting to school nurses with damaged.... body parts, that should not be damaged as are not designed for the activities boys see on porn and think is normal sex.

I have young cousins just gone through puberty who will have nothing to do with boys, along with all her friend groups, as they find boys around them misogynistic and they know the boys are saturated in online porn.

We're in uncharted waters. We've never had such easy access to porn as violent and degrading to women as mainstream online porn is today, boys and men have never been as saturated in it as they are today. I believe it's driving increasingly disturbing views of women and girls.

Modern online porn is a world away from the Playboy and Hustler mags of the 1980s. It's the biggest sector of the internet, it's absolutely huge. One of the most commonly searched for terms? "teen". Says it all really.

If we want our young people to grow up and find happy healthy relationships with the opposite sex it's essential they go through adolescence without becoming addicted to online porn.

Fathers need to step up and stop this access, for themselves and their sons. Teach sons about consent and healthy relationships.

Mothers need to teach daughters to stand up for themselves and say no, and to avoid viewing porn too as it will warp their idea of what sex can be.

I know politicians could block access to it if they had the will. But too many are regular users and they like it.

I expect this comment to generate some angry and defensive reactions though, even here on MN, as too many people (mostly men) really like this rubbish and too many are addicted to it.

Oh god that is such a good diagram of horrendous beliefs and behaviours anx its either getting worse or we are becoming so much more aware of reality and its absolutely sickening.

I had a thought awhile back that women have more in common with black slaves back in those days when it was acceptable but our chains are indivisible and buried.

The question is, what are we going to fo about it as a group!!?

There's power in numbers.

A demonstration, a list of signatures, going on strike as women collectively?

Who's with me? Xx

What do you mean by engage with it?

do more. Say more. Say it louder. Don't put up with misogynistic jokes. Bantz. Rape jokes.

Bring up your sons and daughters to be good people. etc etc etc.