To think that with over 1million pensioners in poverty, removing the WFA makes Labour the nasty party, who tell blatant lies?

[TealTraybake]

And hypocritical lies at that. Just a few months ago Labour ‘vowed to be the party for pensioners’

‘Nearly 1 million people aged over 66 in the UK are living in deprivation, according to government statistics, the highest number since comparable records began.
Labour, which analysed figures from Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) records, has vowed to be the party for pensioners, with plans to insulate millions of homes and reduce energy bills. It has also “committed to retaining” the triple lock which guarantees annual rises to the state pension’

I understand the WFA should be means tested - but the current threshold is far too low. Food prices have gone up. Energy prices have gone up. Some pensioners need that WFA 🥺.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/apr/16/nearly-1m-uk-pensioners-deprivation-official-figures

I understand some people are focusing on wealthy pensioners who take cruises and are able to move properties but that is not who a punitive measure would impact

I'm more focussed on the other end of the spectrum and I think we can do better as a society and look after them and think of other ways to address this

Absolutely!
But as you can see on this thread, some people think that poor pensioners simply don't exist, and the one that do... their situation is their fault for not being financially savvy enough.
Oh, and that they can simply easily sell up (trying to sell a house that wont get a mortgage due to neglect) and just move somewhere else.

Tone deaf.

"Absolutely!
But as you can see on this thread, some people think that poor pensioners simply don't exist, and the one that do... their situation is their fault for not being financially savvy enough.
Oh, and that they can simply easily sell up (trying to sell a house that wont get a mortgage due to neglect) and just move somewhere else.

Tone deaf."

@XenoBitch I don't think it is tone deaf, it's just that some posters do not consider pensioners to be a special category of people who should be held to a different standard than everybody else. The rest of us are constantly blamed for our financial situation, are told to move or make tough decisions, or (as a lot of posters on this thread have demonstrated) are told that we are in a much better financial situation than previous generations. So what's the difference?

Society cannot continue to be unkind to all but one group of people - it's awful that it has come to this but here we are.

Well, that is why things need to be means tested. Treating a demographic the same is not helpful for the public purse, or the people it is meant to help.
But means testing costs money, so the line was drawn at the people on pension credit. And that is where we are.

I think that’s the problem isn’t it. Finding a way to direct help where it’s actually needed without it costing shedloads administratively. I do think getting rid of the WFA has been a blunt tool to fix a complex problem but I am seeing it as the start. It claws back a whole lot of money that’s was being wasted.

Lots of people entitled to, but not claiming, pension credit will hopefully now do it and be even better off as they keep the WFA and get the pension credit. It might come with other benefits too.

Pensions are going to rise by more than the WFA too, which will help.

Then it’s just those that are above the pension credit threshold but still struggle that might need more help.

How many will there be? It can’t be that many. If they are genuinely struggling then the pension credit threshold is clearly too low and hasn’t caught up with the cost of living crisis. Raising that wouldn’t be too administratively expensive. Surely?

I agree, I was told that handing it out to everyone was actually cheaper than administering the payment.
We are in a pickle which will takes decades to correct, but I do think the government need to look at withdrawing aid to other countries and closing the borders until we get this under control.

"We are in a pickle which will takes decades to correct, but I do think the government need to look at withdrawing aid to other countries and closing the borders until we get this under control."

@Scenicgirl wow. Well there it is. Talking about having a heart for pensioners in one post and then advocating for this in another. Shameful.

Not really. Charity begins at home. Why are we giving India aid when its government is funding a space programme?

Foreign aid is a prickly subject. I think it is important that we continue to pay it because we are one of the wealthiest countries and are able to assist others less fortunate. Some information about it is here https://lordslibrary.parliament.uk/importance-of-foreign-aid-programme/#:~:text=Aid%20spending%20is%20targeted%20at%20improving%20the%20lives,progress%20towards%20the%20United%20Nations%E2%80%99%20Sustainable%20Development%20Goals.

It is a separate budget from the domestic welfare budget. Hopefully this government can sort out what is a complicated and contentious subject as of course there is far too much homelessness and poverty in some areas of the country. Decades of underinvestment have lead to this because, by and large it doesn’t make much money for the people that are stealing all of our national wealth so they have been doing the bare minimum.

What I personally want to know is how we’ve had austerity since 2010 but the national debt has tripled and is now larger than GDP, but yet not a single bit of infrastructure has been built (HS2 anyone?) and the Tories have systematically broken every single institution in the country for ‘savings’ but yet there’s no money for anything. Where’s all our fucking money gone? That’s what I want to know. But yet we sit here arguing over a £200 quid allowance payment.

"Not really. Charity begins at home. Why are we giving India aid when its government is funding a space programme?"

@BIossomtoes if charity begins at home then why should I as a working professional (who will have worked for 50 years by the time I can retire) have to subsidise the heating bills of a generation who are wealthier than me and in most cases have worked for a lot less and will have retired a lot earlier than I will?

Keep pulling at that thread and it all crumbles. You either advocate for kindness and understanding to all in need or you don't-you can't cherry pick.

Quite.

The mad thing about this is that I grew up in absolute poverty. Now in the top 1% of households through sheer determination. My own mum is one of the pensioners who is £2 above the pension credit threshold and she rents - not sitting in a million pound house. Thankfully she has me and we heavily financially support her.

Do I think she should have her WFA cut? No. Luckily I’ll pay her bills anyway. My in-laws sat on a house worth hundreds of thousand and about to go on their 5th cruise of the year? Yep.

It is much more nuanced than people make out. For years now the young have been told: cut your cloth, don’t have as many children, move to where the work is, no-one has the right to live where they grew up, CHB should be means tested, etc. Against the huge issues of multi digit housing inflation, the destruction of pensions, 60k+ uni debt, etc, etc.

Successive governments have been spending their time creating a welfare state where the majority are now dependent and not enough people paying in. The future looks bleak for the young. No prospects. If you do well then you will be over taxed to sustain an ever reliant population.

No-one wants pensioners to suffer. However it was inevitable and people haven’t prepared for it and governments haven’t been honest. There are not enough productive workers, paying enough in tax to fund the triple lock, the WFA etc. We seem hell bent on taxing those who can contribute the most out of productivity. Be it the workers or companies. This means that over the coming years pensioners will now have to face the same tough decisions as other demographics have had. The money isn’t there. We borrow colossal amounts for the welfare bill each month. Cuts to foreign aid here and there won’t touch the sides.

Ironically people say in one breath charity begins at home and then in the other are shocked that parties like Reform are doing well. It’s exactly that sentiment which means they are.

Because the deficit was reduced but not wiped. To do that would require the dismantling of the welfare state. All the time there is a deficit then debt will increase.

Ok, so what's your answer?
Tell me how the black hole can be filled if we continue giving to other countries?
I think you will find removing the £300 from people who need it, isn't going to help tremendously.
The illegal immigration problems and the sheer mind blowing amounts of money spent on them are a cause for concern for most people in this country and should be questioned.
And no, I'm not racist.
And again, before you bite, I'm not referring to ALL pensioners! 🙄

It doesn’t. No aid to countries that don’t need it = more money to spend on home grown poverty. It’s win/win.

Your inability to see that every member of a generation isn’t the same is so tedious, particularly when you complain of the same criteria applied to yours. Let me remind you what you said We are either earning too much and are monsters or not earning enough and are drains on society who need to pull our socks up.

There are some very wealthy pensioners, the majority who are comfortable and some who are living in poverty - just like every other generation. Incidentally, as I continually point out and you continually ignore, 60% of pensioners pay income tax. I’ve been paying it for 53 years now and will continue to do so until I die. If I live to be the age my dad did, that will be 81 years.

That’s really not true, is it? For the first decade the Tories were in power interest rates were at historic lows and the opportunity to make real inroads in reducing the national debt was at its optimum. I want to know where all the money went too - public service cuts, no investment in infrastructure and the debt went up - what the fuck were they doing with the money?

So, there’s still a deficit, borrowing has increased massively and we have/had recently the highest tax burden since WWII. Is it fair to say the the last government didn’t know what they were doing?

Or they did and it’s all been trousered seeing as the wealth disparity has increased massively.

Well yes it is. I know from previous posts you don’t understand debt and deficit.

Deficit is the huge gap between what we bring in and what we spend. Until that is reduced to zero we have to keep borrowing just to meet the outgoings.

Until the deficit is completely gone debt will increase. Mind boggling that people don’t understand the difference.

We could’ve wiped the deficit over night. People would not have liked the necessary measures though when the majority depend on the state to survive. That’s the problem.

The latter I suspect. Or a combination of the two.

I don’t know a whole lot about national finances (as you can probably tell) but, isn’t this why the Tories not attempting to resolve the strikes added to the problem as it cost way more in lost GDP due to the effects of people not being able to get to work or get a medical appointment so were off of work for longer. Now that Labour quickly resolved the strikes and explained exactly why it was the right thing to do the Conservatives, Reform and most of the media have attacked the WFA changes so hard (the Tories didn’t give a shit about pensioners until the last year when they were desperate for their votes) to get all of us at each others throats and so to downplay all of the massive damage they’ve caused the country.

Look at the mileage that the Tories got out of the 2010 joke Chancellors’ note (there’s no money left) which they used to form the narrative that Labour can’t be trusted with the economy even though Labour left services and education in a good position. What the Tories have done (the Truss mini-budget etc) should see them never again regain power seeing as some old folk won’t vote Labour because of what happened 50 years ago in the 70s.

The issue was the deficit - which is the shortfall between what we spend and what we receive is huge. Labour left a huge deficit. A lot can be linked back to tax credits. You are quite right in what you say about the damage to GDP. Tory austerity was terrible for productivity and they’ve taxed workers and reduced their pay so much in real terms: we aren’t a competitive country for skilled workers. We are taxing companies and high paying individuals out of productivity. All terrible.

The upshot is - we are in this mess because so many successive governments of all colours have failed and not been honest. They’ve used divisive politics whether it be people on boats or higher rate tax payers and private school fees. All exactly the same.

The Tories were on about reducing the deficit. Until that is gone we will increase debt. The deficit means we are borrowing just to meet state outgoings. That did reduce but not as efficiently as it could have done and then we had Covid. However, we are still in the same conundrum now. We borrow to cover our costs. We spend more than we take in tax receipts despite record burdens. ONS data now shows we have a majority of state dependents. More take out than they put in. With an increasing elderly and sick population we are headed for tough times. All of us. It’s not sustainable.

Labour did the right thing IMO getting public sector workers back to work without strikes. They will now be working and paying tax. Train strikes were crippling to business - no doubt that will be offset and they will be paying tax back on that at the higher rate. However Reform will become even more popular than they were because of the divisive rhetoric. Even the most left leaning posters on here are talking about stopping foreign aid and “look after your own first” then people are shocked when Reform did quite well when you look at actual votes.

Good post. I suppose there’s nothing to it now except to go down to the pub and ignore the politics. 😄

Let’s just go to The Winchester and wait for it all to blow over.

🤣

Jesus, this is getting ridiculous.

Just going to copy paste my comment from one of the other WFA/Labour whine posts because I can't be arsed to go through it yet again.

Are you implying that voting Tory into power would have been morally better?
You know how laughable that is, right?

Or is it just that the older generation were happy to hand out the misery to the younger generations by repeatedly voting the Tories in and now the shoe is on the other foot you all don't like it?

It's ironic how many whining posts I've seen since labour won, yet we are supposed to be the crybaby/snowflake generation according to our elders.

Sucks when you don't just get handed everything and everyone makes you out to be grabby when you need a bit of help, doesn't it?

Where was the rage and pouty bottom lips when the two child benefit cap was introduced?
Everyone was so gleeful to take money away from children and force them into poverty, because families were just 'popping out kids and sponging off of everyone else' etc.
Not one hint of rage. Just an overwhelming attitude of "You all deserve this struggle, you don't work hard enough".

Now you know how it feels.