To ask if anyone is clued up on the challenge this week to VAT on school fees?

[feesss]

we went to look round a school this morning and we obviously asked about VAT and the lady showing us round said there has been a challenge this week so it may not happen? Is anyone aware of this? I can’t see much online about it?

The Labour Government is acting in bad faith and will likely lose in court and are likely to deliberately delay the court case because they most likely want to cause maximum damage to the sector. If bad faith towards children can be proven eventually in the form of legal advice they will have received, they are likely to have to pay out damages towards those children.

It is inexcusable to go for small schools which charge similar amounts to state schools. It is inexcusable to go for any children with SEND when the state has already failed them.
I am losing all respect for the Labour Party.

I also cannot understand how they can charge VAT on the boarding element of any private schools, if they have exempted it in the state sector. That makes zero sense either. It is welfare services. Kids attending schools miles away from home - charging VAT on that element does not appear consistent.

@SerendipityJane - please stop pretending this is a Tory/Reform issue only.

https://www.politicshome.com/thehouse/article/vat-private-schools-step-far

Plenty of Labour MPs are against VAT on education. It is just that Starmer whipped them.

Shrug.

I'm not pretending anything. Just to annoy some here, I have no skin in this game (that flew a long time ago). I'm just watching from the sidelines and dropping in when I have a thought. Or not, depending what you think.

If I had to explain this to my non UK friends (which isn't easy) then it would be: new government introduces legislation to deliver a manifesto pledge while a minority of affected people voice their unhappiness. Put that way, the response would universally be : "You what ? How is that even news ? It's a tale as old as time !".

If you don't like my posts, don't read them.

In broader terms I am interested in the concept of a court striking down legislation that was part of a manifesto pledge. Especially in the UK which has managed to avoid a single codified constitution when it comes to such things.

As I recall, the last time a UK government and the ECHR locked horns was over the issue of prisoners votes. The ECHR said prisoners had to have them. The UK - in the form of David Cameron - said "Thanks for the advice, but we're grand." and guess what. No prisoner got a vote. This clearly showing that whatever the ECHR rules, the UK - as a sovereign nation - doesn't have to comply. However since this issue is now a chew toy in the yappy mouths of Reform and the Tories, it impinges on politics in a wider environment. nothing exists in a vacuum (literally !). Folk here might be preoccupied with VAT on private schools. But looking to the ECHR for a resolution makes it a much more general issue. Especially if you are a fan of human rights.

Ha ha, yes of course closing independent schools will lead to more diverse education.

(I don't think the litigation will be won, sadly, but I live in hope. I do, however, think it is a pernicious awful measure rushed in without giving people time to prepare. It would also be illegal in the EU.)

I do, however, think it is a pernicious awful measure rushed in without giving people time to prepare.

Well that certainly is nothing new.

Why is it so hard to explain to non U.K. friends? It’s pretty straight forward, the U.K. Government want to tax education. Do you mean because they think it couldn’t happen in their non U.K. countries? A lot of people thought it couldn’t happen here as well.

Labour can of course ignore the ruling, going to be interesting.

The UK did eventually partially change the law on prisoner voting so as to comply with the ruling.

prisonreformtrust.org.uk/updated-guidance-on-voting-in-prison/

People convicted and serving a custodial sentence are not allowed to vote whilst detained in custody.

Sounds like prisoners not getting the vote to me. Mainly the prisoner who actually started the case.

All the change in the law did was make it clear that "prisoners" isn't the same as "people in prison". Which is semantics, not ethics.

Sounds like prisoners not getting the vote to me. Mainly the prisoner who actually started the case.

The Hirst judgment was in 2005, and there wasn’t any resolution until 2018. It was also regarded as the ECtHR overstepping its remit and encroaching on parliamentary legislative authority.

The ECHR is there to prevent autocracies and fundamental breaches of human rights, as a back stop.
Parliament may be sovereign but they are not above the law. It is completely hypocritical of a Labour Government that introduced the Human Rights Act in the 2000s in to direct law in the UK to strengthen it to then go ahead and deliberately breach it, knowingly. Manifesto pledge or no manifesto pledge - Parliament is not above the law.

It really proves to many of us that the Labour Party is as fundamentally broken as the Tories and the ramifications of that are deeply worrying. You have the old school brigade that want to harm private schools at all cost, including the cost of the Human Rights Act. Absolutely shameful behaviour and also entirely ignorant. The private schools sector is as varied as the state school sector with many smaller players picking up the pieces where the state failed children.

It is completely hypocritical of a Labour Government that introduced the Human Rights Act in the 2000s in to direct law in the UK to strengthen it to then go ahead and deliberately breach it, knowingly.

This is a bit premature - why not wait for the outcome of the judicial review?

Well that’s bullshit. Because I had to pick a school in a catchment. I couldn’t just decide that I wanted another school 10 miles away.
So the state absolutely interferes.

No-one is closing the schools. They are businesses, paid for, and if you can’t afford the service don’t use it. Just as you buy the car you can afford or go in the holiday within your budget.
If a private school closes it’s because it wasn’t commercially viable or badly run. Or refuse to cut its cloth.

Cut it's cloth = make teachers redundant.
Most indy schools have approx 1 term surplus because they simply aren't the high profile likes of Eton etc.
They are cutting cloth by reducing, or stopping, bursaries + scholarships and making redundancies

Generally under UK law, aids and adaptations for the disabled are VAT free.

However VAT is still applied on items that may be essential to a disabled person but discretionary to you or I. For example an electric can opener.

And it's been that way for a looooooooong time (I can assure you all).

It's not a perfect comparison, but it does show that the state can and will interfere even if it actively disadvantages a protected minority group.

I'm also reminded of VAT on sanitary products.

There was a labour spokesperson on the Politics Show this morning absolutely insisting it wasn't an issue because children with SEN will be exempt due to their EHCPs. I was yelling at the TV that so many don't have them because the process can be so tortured and slow that desperate parents have hoicked them and private to get them the needed support within a week. If that is their defence of this it will get shot down.

Labour are closing schools, what other aim could there be for the policy than pushing children to the state sector?. There’s already been 3 citing it as a reason for closing. You seem to be half way there with understanding this when you say, ‘if you can’t afford the service don’t use it.’ What happens to the school when people don’t use it? Don’t answer right away, have a little think.

You are correct that most PS aren’t commercially viable as by definition they are not commercial entities.

It’s not a valid comparison at all. The U.K. Government isn’t a signatory to an agreement specifically stating to not interfere with people’s choice of tin opener.

“Well that’s bullshit. Because I had to pick a school in a catchment. I couldn’t just decide that I wanted another school 10 miles away.
So the state absolutely interferes.”

@Lookslikemeemaw - the equivalent in the state sector would be if suddenly every family would have to cough up 20 per cent of state funding for their state school or lose their school place (except children with EHCPs).
Would do you think would happen if they did that?
The state cannot interfere in state school places in that way, they should not be able to do it with private schools either.
They have exempted nursery places and university places from the VAT, state boarding, children with EHCPs etc and obviously all children in state schools too. There is not going to be VAT on any of those children. Just the 550k odd kids in independent schools. It is a breach of the act, whatever way you end up looking at it.

‘Labour are closing schools, what other aim could there be for the policy than pushing children to the state sector?’

I’m confused. Private schools are ‘independent’ - they decide if they close or not. Unless they’re so awful the state has to step in.

Some state schools are closing, as the child
population is dropping and less places are needed - for now anyway.
Mainly catchments are being re-drawn…

‘I’m confused. Private schools are ‘independent’ - they decide if they close or not.’

I thought that might happen, that’s why I suggested you having some time to think about it. You’ll get there.

‘Some state schools are closing, as the child
population is dropping and less places are needed - for now anyway.
Mainly catchments are being re-drawn…’

Makes sense, thanks for letting me know.

Dfriend decided not to send 2nd child to private school last year because her school has put up the fees by so much year on year in the 6 year gap that her fees had almost DOUBLED.
From what I read/ hear this ain’t that unusual 5-10% annual increases. Parent being priced out of ‘choice’ really has little to do with Labour.
Still, the school has a ‘ world-class’ cricket pitch now, costing millions. So not all bad for the kid who still has a year left there, and no interest whatsoever in cricket.