To ask if anyone is clued up on the challenge this week to VAT on school fees?

[feesss]

we went to look round a school this morning and we obviously asked about VAT and the lady showing us round said there has been a challenge this week so it may not happen? Is anyone aware of this? I can’t see much online about it?

The people you know @BotanicalGreen are clearly very different to the people I know - here they are more aspirational first generation and calculate things carefully. Pay the uni fees and save for a house deposit for DCs plus top up tutoring makes more sense to my group.

Agreed and that's why I believe that it is inaccurate to assume that people will universally think in the same way, as your initial post suggested.

My original post assumes that most people will eventually do the Maths. Private secondaries around here with the VAT are 25-30k. The Government is demanding 4-5k extra per child per year. That’s equal to one child’s full ISA allowance- Pop it in a bank account at current interest rates and let it grow for a uni fund and house deposit. Pretty much everyone can make those conclusions. It’s different where SEND is involved or you know the kids will inherit from grandparents etc eventually. Or you really need them to do all extracurricular at school because you travel and have a proper high flying career.
Well-being of the DC is not just the here and now- people also consider the “in 10 years time”. Therefore, I can’t see just a few thousand leaving and the rest paying up. It’s not going to happen.

If it were just based on the maths, it would be reasonable to make such assumptions. However, values, attitudes and the needs of a specific child transcend the maths, when people can afford it. It is not straightforward.

I am not sure what you mean by “values” @BotanicalGreen - even the poshest people I know in London with titles and estates, are doing state primary now and avoid the London style prep, because they want a community and some of the preps are transient and international. So I am pretty sure that if enough posh and middle class people collectively go state and top up with tutoring, most of them will all end up doing it eventually. Humans are sociable animals, they do what people like them do. It is not that complicated.

Which leads me to conclude that all along this was a policy aimed at destruction of the independent school sector, to the extent possible. Never mind if the most elite ones stay elite or become even more elite, because it will be a tiny percentage left. Never mind the kids with SEND etc etc military, arts etc - all necessary collateral damage in the great Labour belief that state for all is the best. Because they know best, and their values are best.
However, I still think they may well lose in court, but won’t even care, because some damage will have been done. And what is more, the longer they drag it out, the more people will hope for a win and pay up.

@Araminta1003

In many parts of the country there is no choice, or you can only choose an alternative if you can afford the fares/time to travel significant distances. Everyone pretty much attend my local state secondary, there's even a couple of students with "celebrity" parents, the child of a lord, the mp's grandkids and so on because the alternative is driving them 20 mins each way to the next nearest comp (considered worse) or 45 mins on a good run to the nearest private school, takes at least 75 mins by bus to that school.

Private schools as a mainstream choice really is an urban elite thing and grammar schools are non existent in most places, not that you would think so reading Mumsnet.

@mitogoshigg - be that as it may, the urban elite are those funding a significant amount of the taxes raised in this country so who knows what the fall out is going to be. The aspirational urban elite may well demand choices for their labours or just cut back on those. Clearly, the hope is they work even harder and just pay up for the VAT to keep funding everyone else.

Values are values. There is nothing to explain. It is what you fundamentally believe in. Many just believe in private education and it is very high on their financial priorities. There is no point trying to analyse, validate, extrapolate (and overcomplicate). They believe it is fundamental to their children being happy and reaching their potential and that is the crux of it. This is not the only group that defies your logic. There are others, as we have already discussed, where the practicalities of what alternatives are available and the logistics of them, play a more significant role in the decision than pure value for money.

There are a huge range of reasons parents pay school fees. The bigger issue is the group who pay fees are already in most cases bearing the highest tax burden in i70 years (those on over £70k before tax (£4200 a month after tax before student loan charge)). No one will be crying for those of us who are as "rich"as that but plenty are disincentivised to earn more so take it easier and the state and the poor lose out as a result - silly state.

“Values are values. There is nothing to explain. It is what you fundamentally believe in. Many just believe in private education and it is very high on their financial priorities.”

No, I disagree. Independent education is not some sort of religion- it’s a conscious financial choice. And I would know because I did attend a public school for two years to board and I do have a lot of friends and colleagues who did as well. Many would love to give their DC the same but cannot afford it anymore and they aren’t going to choose it over a good house and other social and cultural experiences, like travel and music lessons. They may choose it over a fancy car or swish holidays but that is where it ends.
This policy directly leads to less choice for all children because it displaces everyone across the social spectrum. It’s simply terrible policy making and won’t even translate to extra cash for all. It simply guarantees that great British public schools become to preserve of the ultra rich and international elite only and will lead to the bankruptcy and closure of many smaller schools, particularly in rural areas.

You are spectacularly missing the point I have tried to make several times now. You are talking about conscious financial choice when there are good state alternatives suitable for the child. That is not always the case. Applying your logic what ROI% do you think one would put on getting a child out of an environment where they were self-harming and having suicidal thoughts? The answer is that you wouldn't care about ROI% as long as you could meet the fees. You would just want your child out of there at any cost. Or if their SEN needs were not being met and they were really struggling? Or if you live rurally and there is no decent state option for miles. Or if you can (just) afford the fees but not afford a house move. Complex picture indeed and you need to look beyond the urban elite to understand the degree of its complexity.

@mitogoshigg I'm relieved to read your post as that's the case where I live too, a very ordinary town with a mixed demographic where virtually all attend two comps. No grammar anguish and no private schools for miles. Not heard of anyone having tutoring either. Yet, many kids do very well, go to good unis and move on to rewarding careers.

Sounds great, I’d say there’s really no need to force children out of their schools who live outside your town though.

“Applying your logic what ROI% do you think one would put on getting a child out of an environment where they were self-harming and having suicidal thoughts? The answer is that you wouldn't care about ROI% as long as you could meet the fees. You would just want your child out of there at any cost. Or if their SEN needs were not being met and they were really struggling?”

@BotanicalGreen - this is the aspect where I am hoping the courts will step in and say the policy is a breach of human rights as regards such children. It is also possible, they will deem it a breach for any children already in the private sector as the State has interfered with their actual schooling as well. It remains to be seen.

Update from education not taxation, looks like legal action can’t begin until the education tax receives Royal Assent in February :https://www.change.org/p/stop-labour-from-adding-20-vat-to-private-school-fees-and-forcing-kids-to-change-schools/u/33087347?cs_tk=AwBz_Szh1cMZLe3uWWcAAXicyyvNyQEABF8BvGRlNDhjY2VlOTcwNGQ2YWQ1NmZmYzM2NWFhZmE4NDM3YTc0OTZhYjAwYzc0MDQ1OWEyZjkxOGFjNjM5NjUwZjI%3D&utm_campaign=d7aee018f3204493b89221cabdfb3d80&utm_content=initial_v0_9_0&utm_medium=email&utm_source=petition_update&utm_term=cs

There is also a new petition to force a parliamentary debate (https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/701268)
now further information is available, including analysis by the Adam Smith Institute showing that the Government could lose up to £1.6bn through this tax.

PRIVATE education is a choice not a human right.
The right to AN education for all, as provided by the state, should be a global human right.

use private education, just don’t whine about the cost.

Incorrect, all children have a right for the state NOT TO DELIBERATELY INTERFERE in their education, however it is funded. It is particularly cruel right now given the SEND crisis, attendance crisis and that Gen Z is the new silent generation due to Covid. The Government are being reckless to politically point score and are willing to sacrifice the mental health of countless children in pursuit of their own selfish agenda.

And please could we stop pretending this is just about standard private schools? They want to rejig all of SEND and push some children out who are currently on state funded places as well to leave it just for the highest of needs. Kent County Council is going to be embroiled in a legal challenge, Bucks have also raised alarm bells about the very wide ramifications of this cruel and negligent policy and all the other stuff these numpties seem to have planned for our children.

Parental choice is enshrined in the ECHR act though. So the state isn't allowed to interfere in choices made by parents according to ethical or religious stands.
So single sex schools/faith schools which aren't provided by the state.
That's why 1legal challenge is from single sex angle ie protecting female only spaces and 1 is from religious pov because state doesn't offer Jewish or Muslim faith schools.
The 3rd challenge is from SEN angle because state couldn't meet the needs of the DC of that parent.
By adding a tax onto fees at indy schools, the government is interfering in the choices of parents. As it goes against the agreed principle across Europe of not taxing education.

You may not agree with this but that's irrelevant. This will be decided in court at cost of ££ to taxpayer

Whatever anyone’s views on VAT, it helps for everyone to have accurate information.

state doesn't offer Jewish or Muslim faith schools.

In some areas, they do.

They want to rejig all of SEND and push some children out who are currently on state funded places as well to leave it just for the highest of needs.

All DC with SEN should have their needs met, but just to point out, this is not unique to Labour. The Conservatives also did exactly this. Some Safety Valve agreements unlawfully include limiting the numbers in independent placements &/or SS.

By that logic, schools charging for education are contravening the ECHR - denying a right to ethical or religious education to poor parents.

And frankly it's about time I stopped paying for life - it's my human right in the ECHR.

I should have been a lawyer.

Like I said, those are the reasons for which Lord Pannick previously advised Labour that they couldn't/shouldn't tax education.

It doesn't matter what you think to be honest.
I have no issue paying my general income tax, what I object to is paying an extra 20% tax to fund millionaires like Starmer, getting a free box of cereal for their kids. If you are going to start taxing education then means test it all.
If you want to pay more then contact HMRC and set up a monthly direct debit, you can also choose where your extra tax goes then too.
FYI this isn't ring fenced for education, it is going into general taxation pot and listen carefully to Labour's re-brand, you may be disappointed.

‘Incorrect, all children have a right for the state NOT TO DELIBERATELY INTERFERE in their education, ’

er, no they don’t. You keep your child
from school without good reason - the state ABSOLUTELY interferes. It’s a legal regiment to educate your child - if not at school then you have to prove they’re being home schooled adequately.

Still, you crack on with declaring ‘facts’ as they suit you.

‘state doesn't offer Jewish or Muslim faith schools.
In some areas, they do.

Exactly - they do but also - schools should be SECULAR- leave the fairy tales to the churches, mosques and temples.