To ask if anyone is clued up on the challenge this week to VAT on school fees?

[feesss]

we went to look round a school this morning and we obviously asked about VAT and the lady showing us round said there has been a challenge this week so it may not happen? Is anyone aware of this? I can’t see much online about it?

And?

BBC Verify changed its wording from ‘independent tax expert’ to ‘founder of the independent Tax Policy Group’.

Interesting that Guido didn’t refute Neidle's analysis used by BBC Verify.

You're grasping at straws (every pun intended).

Really @SabrinaThwaite ?

Tax Policy Associates is a brilliant website.
However, independent and non-partisan means something different at a common sense level, to many people.

I hadn’t realised 8 or so months ago what Dan Neidle’s close affiliation is with the Labour Party. That is all.
So when I originally read some of his comments on private school taxation I simply assumed there was no political bias whatsoever in any of them. I only found out about the links later on.
Of course a professional can provide independent tax advice at the same time.

We shall see in due course what happens with this court case. I find it quite worrying.

Yes, really? I can separate Neidle the active Labour Party member from Neidle the tax specialist. It’s called fact checking.

Its more about if Neidle can separate the two, rather than mumsnet posters.

then we’ll see in the next few years who’s right and who’s wrong about the benefits or not

even assuming the policy collects all the cash they claim is possible (eg. every child in private school pays the 20% and no children leave as a result), there is not a cat in hells chance they're recruiting 6,000 extra teachers, let alone 6,000 extra teachers who make it to 5 years post qualification.

Until any Government recognises that education is broken, it won't get fixed. This is just a game of smoke and mirrors and by this thread alone (there have been plenty of others), the Government is winning.

I am not sure all state education is broken. I think most people who can buy their way into better schools via catchment etc one way or another. I think the system is not working for children with SEND and is also not working for many very poor children. As for middle class kids with books at home, parents are often plugging the gaps inevitably.
The left ideology has always been the hope that children learn from others by osmosis. So for example, the fact that our kids read Classics from Year 3, eg played the violin and piano and went on trips to museums, theatre, abroad is somehow meant to inspire other kids they are at school with. Not sure how, but they are hoping that social and cultural capital is “shared”.
If you look at what Labour governments have achieved in eg Wales and compare it to England, it is clear that Labour is worse with education than Tories.

TBF, there are - anecdotally - a fair number of fee-paying parents who are discovering that at least some state schools are surprisingly good. A Spectator columnist said this recently, FWIW.

The problem the government has to face is that class warfare against independent schooling is only going to end in tears for the politicians. Even if the courts don’t strike this down, the money lost will be severely embarrassing.

I don’t support private schooling - I would never have paid for it: too many children, not enough money and too much uncertainty - but I don’t oppose it either. The ‘red meat’ left-wingery on display with this policy is loathsome and destructive.

I can’t see them backing down on this unfortunately OP.

The problem is that the negatives of the policy (i.e. reduction in education choice, closing schools, upset children, damaging vulnerable children, job losses, increased burden on state schools) are actually what the supporters and policy architects consider benefits. It’s only about spite.

I entirely disagree on your take, but as I said, we’ll see in a few years.

Correct. They want all kids in a 1 size fits all model, and as we know that fails more kids than it serves. Just look at their other education policies around inclusion

Some of us don't have to wait years to notice any fallout from this policy. It is happening right before our eyes to our own children/those we know, in real time, all the while goaded on every social media platform by gleeful people who are enjoying every minute. Friends in other countries are looking on and wondering what on earth is happening to this country. Taxed to the hilt for doing the right thing for your SEND child, what a world.

@Musicofthespiers it really has brought out the worst side of some

Yes but what are the benefits you’re hoping to see in a few years?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c36e106n667o

That is an awful lot of money but if it costs £250,000 just to repair one lift in Yorkshire I suppose that is what the state's choice is.

I cannot predict whether the litigation will be won or not. I hope it will be won but we shall see. I suppose if private schools do not have to make so many or any bursary places available then that might help keep fees down and if fewer children go to the very hard to get into most academic day private schools where many apply per place and most who apply don't get in, that might mean those who can afford it might have a slightly better chance of getting in - that is the only silver lining in the cloud for those parents who just about can afford to pay a bit extra. Those parents will then have less spending money so less will go into the economy more generally which may not be very good for the state.

@xenia - I think the real problem is that a lot of working women are just thinking, to hell with all the stress, let’s work less and use state schools instead and top up with tutoring and drive them around to extra curricular. It is that aspect of taxing the top cohort more and more which is massively starting to backfire now and will quickly affect overall tax take. There is just no point working extra to go over 100k anymore. Especially now with the pension changes as well. It is work less benefits Britain, all the way. Or join the civil service.

This just shows out of touch some people
are - most women work to feed and clothe their kids, pay for a roof over their head, give them some luxuries… not for private school.
No point in earning over £100k any more??? Boo fucking hoo.
oh, and I do earn over that, I just pay the tax. FFS.

@Lookslikemeemaw - it is a tax on aspiration. Aspiring for your DCs will be punished- so the counter argument is to aspire less. There is no point in aspiring past 100k - you cannot even park it in the pension anymore following the recent tax changes.
So yes, many of us choose to work 60%-80% out of choice because we would rather spend the time with our DCs instead of handing it over to HMRC.
In all likelihood, others will follow my path too now.

This seems somewhat off the mark to me. There are many people who deeply believe that private education is much better suited to their DC than the state provision and it is unlikely that they would be so cavalier in their attitude to switching. People will generally only switch if they really can't afford to stay. Otherwise they may well be upset and cross but they won't put principles and their bank balances before the wellbeing of their own children.

@BotanicalGreen - that may apply to those already in the private system or who have children with SEND. The rest adapt their thinking very quickly. Not one family in our high achieving state primary has applied for private schools for year 7 this year, and it’s usually about 5 and ten years ago it was even more. And we have had new kids join from the private sector this term.
People aren’t stupid, they know the way the wind is blowing and those who can adapt quickly.

In addition, a lot of the kids who would normally pass grammar did not, because a lot of the kids from the local private schools did grammar tests this year. So our lot are going to the comp, increasingly, which then may mean other kids, especially the kids from the more deprived primaries locally, will be pushed out of those two high achieving comps. So we can see it all playing out right in front of our eyes. And the actual consequences are the complete oopposite to what they may have hoped for.

Interesting but anecdote. It's a feature of these threads that situations vary very greatly by geographic area. This is your own experience in your area. It doesn't mean that people are making the same decisions across the country. For example, in many rural areas families wouldn't have the same degree of choice. What if there were no high performing comps to access?

“Interesting but anecdote. It's a feature of these threads that situations vary very greatly by geographic area. This is your own experience in your area. It doesn't mean that people are making the same decisions across the country. For example, in many rural areas families wouldn't have the same degree of choice. What if there were no high performing comps to access?”

I assume they would weigh up the cost of private schools vs moving into catchment and then take an informed decision. Unless people are happy to just pay up a 20 per cent aspiration/privilege penalty. Unless they are very rich or are trapped I can’t see people doing that.

Too simplistic. People's beliefs and attitudes play a huge part when something is still affordable to them. Also, there is nothing more emotive to people than the wellbeing and future of their own children.I know many families who are just sucking it up. They are committed to privately educating their children, they can afford it with VAT and they like where they live.