To ask if anyone is clued up on the challenge this week to VAT on school fees?

[feesss]

we went to look round a school this morning and we obviously asked about VAT and the lady showing us round said there has been a challenge this week so it may not happen? Is anyone aware of this? I can’t see much online about it?

A bit of perspective that education is much wider than the single issue of VAT on school fees? You can not support the policy and find other issues more concerning, you know. Or maybe you don't.

Surely they can’t be seen to deliberately delay

Whatever anyone’s views on VAT, LAs deliberately delay by acting unlawfully day in day out in relation to SEN. There are no serious repercussions for that behaviour now.

Understood, now what does this have to do with implementing an education tax and forcing kids out of schools?

I think that for parents who are facing pulling their kids out of schools in which they are happy and settled there aren't many more important issues. Especially for those in GCSE or Alevel years

Yes I think people with no skin in the game are forgetting this can have a huge negative impact on actual real children, just not their children obviously.

Leaving out ECHR, this is a deliberate and targeted policy to make children's (all be it minority of U.K. children) lives harder. It could potentially be devastating and life changing for some vulnerable children and parents deserve at least some genuine reasons why this is happening. The very dubious financial on the back of a fag packet logic that looks to raise barely anything (if not be a net cost) and abstract vague references to equality simply aren’t good enough justification for most parents. What are the pros of this decisive policy and do they even come close to outweighing the so very very many cons?

Of course that's their prerogative but (once again) others are perfectly entitled to have different priorities which are equally valid.

The hyperfocus on this particular issue by some on here suggests that they themselves aren't nearly so bothered about other education related issues. You know the ones where they don't have skin in the game. It cuts both ways for sure.

No, that's your prejudice for thinking that

Says the poster who was saying upthread (quote) "If you want to tax education then do it fairly ie private nurseries + universities." That speaks volumes.

You and others clearly care very, very much about that which affects you directly.

Of course I care about something that affects my child, what sort of parent would I be if I didn't?
I also care that this is a divisive, inconsistent policy that is being sold under false premise and goes against fundamentally accepted principles of education.
I have explained my previous comment, you have ignored that

Perhaps there’s other threads hyper focused on other education issues?

I must say, your lack of mentioning the plight of loggerhead turtles in the Indian Ocean on this thread suggests you aren’t nearly so bothered about environmental issues.

There is caring about something that affects one's child and then there is expecting others to care as much as they do. Two very different things.

I think the gist is that you don't believe on tax on education but, if VAT is imposed, it should be on private nurseries and universities as well. So, if your group is suffering, so should others.

However, the glaring difference is that there is no private/state choice for university. Therefore there would be no opt out of VAT other than not being able to pursue tertiary education at all. This would mean that the poorest students probably would not go to university, particularly when they are already faced with crippling levels of interest on student debt. I feel strongly that should not happen despite the fact that my own DC have a privileged background.

Maybe just best accept that different people are passionate about different things and that's okay.

Seems like someone has been on the vino a bit early tonight.

Yes, that reminds me actually …your lack of mentioning the great French white wine blight of the mid nineteenth century hasn’t gone unnoticed on this education VAT legal case thread.

The poorest pupils are already not going to uni, they are pursuing other options eg Apprenticeships because their parents can't afford to top them up at uni. Labour increasing tuition fees will do nothing to widen participation.
I have worked in FE/tertiary education for over 25 years, I am fully aware of the situation.

That's the strangest argument I've ever seen for adding VAT on to University Fees. The costs are already a hurdle so let's make it higher? I would have hoped that someone who has worked in education for 25+ years would have a more compassionate perspective.

I thought the point about VAT on university fees was simply a risk pointed out - namely, that if the courts hold that only taxing private education is a breach as it is being singled out, then the Labour Party could face the choice of having to either tax all forms of education or none. And most of the posters on here agree on the fact that university fees should not be subject to VAT.

People who are pro VAT simply believe that private education is a commodity and non essential, but philosophically that makes zero sense because all children are entitled to an essential education, as a human right. Having to move children out of schools would be a breach. Determining what is non essential is complex. Those kids all sit their GCSEs too, the parents should not be penalised because of the way the education is funded. If there were a tax, it certainly should never have been on the essential part of education.

Exactly Sen was never mentioned by many until it was for their own agenda. I’m not including the genuine people who have been left with no choice but to pay for independent for their Sen children but they are the minority of independent parents. What would happen in an ideal world where the Sen system was sorted out such that children could have their needs met in a school so that parents do not have to resort to paying, would the human rights arguement for Sen/indepemdent still apply?

@Lookslikemeemaw and @Morph22010 I am in exactly that position with mine. I'd love not to be bankrupting myself for the kids to have an education but that's where I am. I don't really get the point about "you didn't care about it then" ...of course people care and post about what affects them. I posted on the SEN boards a few years ago when my kids started to be unable to cope and state and got useful support there. Now I'm on these threads because my settled and happy kids and others like them could face huge disruption if, as a result of this schools close or they or their friends have to move to a setting that won't work for them. I think that's the bit that is often left off this. It's not just about them having to move schools, which loads of kids do all the time, it's moving to a school that won't or can't meet their needs. State secondary schools are mostly 1000+. Simply too big and busy. IF this policy was going to produce revenue that would fix the state SEN system then there'd be no argument. But literally no-one thinks it's going to go anywhere near that. Estimates vary but the amount raised will be the tiniest drop in the ocean, will be likely offset by movement and overall will do more harm than good, so there can ONLY be a conclusion that this is ideological spite.

I don’t mean you didn’t care personally but most kids in independent schools aren’t there because of Sen and now kids like yours are being used by certain parents opposing the vat them to support an arguement. The injustice is that you had no other option than to pay in the first place and yes you may have posted in threads in the Sen section at the time but where have all the threads about the injustice of you have to pay in the first place been for the last ten years from the people who are now so oh so concerned about Sen children. the majority don’t give a shite about Sen children or your children they are just convenient to be used for their own means.

i don’t actually agree with vat on fees and have massive sympathy for people in your position as I know how difficult the Sen system is to navigate. I went a different route and went to tribunal and my son is now in a special school for kids or mainstream academic ability so the classes are about 6 kids each and about 80 kids in the whole school and it’s state funded.

A breach of human rights! That is just ridiculous and pretty offensive. Check your privilege!!! The vast majority of the population can not afford private education.

Or maybe read about the legal challenges before commenting

And yet again you spectacularly miss the point. Yet again you twist my words and gaslight.

Parents choosing to buy a luxury they can’t really afford or commit to long term( fees rise regardless and aren’t controlled) is on them, literally nobody else. The vast majority of Sen kids are in state schools which provide free education for all and is there for the taking for everybody,privately educated kids aren’t any more needy. In many cases they are less needy with some “SENs” having only been diagnosed by parents. SEN provision isn’t also better in private schools, you hear many privately educating families bemoan how poor it is. The sector does a far better job with Sen provision.

The legal challenges which are grasping at straws.