To ask if anyone is clued up on the challenge this week to VAT on school fees?

[feesss]

we went to look round a school this morning and we obviously asked about VAT and the lady showing us round said there has been a challenge this week so it may not happen? Is anyone aware of this? I can’t see much online about it?

Personally, I have been working umpteen unpaid hours supporting the SEND children and families I work with. Working til 1am most nights and weekends, sometimes later. I never got a minute TOIL or overtime pay. Now I work independently (to meet my own child's high needs) and continue to work unpaid at times to ensure children get the support they need, given services are woefully inadequate.

Quite a few children I support attend independent schools. Their parents have been driven to the independent sector because their kids have been failed in state schools. If you don't have an EHCP, in my area, children can't access NHS therapies so they have to fork out for independent SaLT, OT, physio on top.

I will scream from the rooftops for these kids and families. I have been screaming from the rooftops for kids in state provision too, relentlessly. I actually do care about children in all sectors, it really isn't that hard to want the best for all children.

My little boy is in an indie setting because I'm well aware of what he needs and well aware he has no chance of getting that in our village school. He is thriving and I will not be moving him no matter how much debt I go into to keep him there. At his school around 25% of children have SEND, 2 have EHCPs. It is a tiny school, i have no idea if they will survive. They don't deserve this attack based on ill informed ideology.

Omg it is a well know turn of phrase

"Posho"? Doing the same thing to me that I was accused of.....but thank you for proving my point so eloquently

Maybe read @Musicofthespiers post on last page?
Relieve yourself of your prejudice and misinformation.

Hopefully the courts will find in favour of the private schools in the litigation. it is the court not barrisers' opinions which will prevail. I suppose Labour could choose to abolish the Human Rights Act 1998 and that might help the UK in some other ways too as we would even then still be subject to laws against torture in war - Geneva Convention etc too.
It would be quite funny though if the litigation means Labour is hoist by its own human rights petard.

Which of my points do you disagree with specifically? I’m hard of thinking so can’t make it out from that diatribe.

My point was that the most wealthy are complaining bitterly about paying 20% extra - friends of mine included - and it embarrasses me. The hand wringing and whining.

I have several difficult life events going on at the moment but I don’t go around whinging and moaning (apart from to my nearest and dearest) because I know how lucky I am.

Fine, challenge it. Fine, have a little moan privately. But, seriously, all this hand wringing I find cringe worthy.

I have addressed your points one by one and separated it into paragraphs for you but clearly you are unable formulate a response.
I think you need to look up the meaning of diatribe and re-read your previous post.

I have absolute empathy for your situation and I would hope that the school will offer a bursary to cover the difference for people in your position. But you don’t represent the majority of private education customers.

I see first hand how they are moaning and whining about paying the difference and how angry they are when selling one of their many expensive watches would sort it out. Or going on one less holiday a year. Or upping their hours. Or just both of them working. It’s disproportionate anger and outrage.

Actually she is in the same situation, and representative, of over 100,000 kids in Indy schools.
It is not uncommon to have classes with 20-25% SEN kids in Indy schools. Not with EHCPs so in scope for VAT.
The sector is incredibly complex and you minimising the impact this will have on the kids of those parents is mean spirited.
At the end of the day it is the 550,000 kids in Indy schools who will be penalised and that's why attacking the parents gets people's backs up. Why punish kids for the decisions their parents made?

@Orchidzombiewatch thank you, but the school is not in a position to offer a bursary. Most aren't. It's a misconception that these schools have loads of money floating around. With the TPS in place to attract and keep quality staff, rises in NI contributions and energy and food price hikes, the average small school just can't cover it. Twenty percent of an already expensive thing is a lot. I have said this upthread and on the other one running at the moment but if this policy was actually going to achieve anything positive for the state sector, that would mean it would be fit for purpose for my kids and those like them, I could understand it. But its not going to. The only thing it does is harm kids like mine and make some of the vile arseholes sneering at "poshos" on here feel good.

I wasn’t telling staff to get a grip though was I? I was aiming it at the parents I keep in touch with that are engaging with this handwringing and whining, whom I know can easily afford the increase.

The situation for staff is saddening but there are job losses and changes for many. Steel works in Port Talbot. P&O who sacked all their staff and took them back in in lower salaries. The zero hours workers in their thousands. The Amazon warehouse workers that got your last purchase to you.

Its workers rights that are the issue here and unfettered capitalism. Not this tax.

Absolutely don’t count on it happening, I’d very surprised

I woidont be surprised if the Labour Party back track on the inheritance tax increase
for farms though, that seems an unfortunate misstep. The vat on private schools was clearly in their manifesto. I doubt it will come to it but government lawyers will be involved if it comes to it.

But interestingly the lawyer leading the case for ISC is Lord Pannick who previously advised Labour that taxing private schools was illegal. Labour previously accepted that and now he is leading the challenge against them, he knows this case inside out

Ok fair point, thanks for informing me.

Something to watch surely but I don’t think any parent should get their hopes up.

Though I broadly agree with the policy there should be some kind of exemption for children with SEN and/or schools that offer dedicated SEN provision

I don’t think any of us can really predict the impact of this policy. And I don’t think it’s ‘the answer’ to inequality.

I do remember, whilst using an independent school, wondering why in earth it had charitable status. Undoing that would be hugely complex, time consuming and expensive. I think adding VAT is a second best policy, much quicker and cheaper to put in place.

I don’t think we will see huge numbers leaving the private sector, I also don’t think we will see huge numbers of private schools closing.

My prediction, for what it’s worth, is that the vast majority of parents can easily afford the rise. Some will find it harder but manage. Some won’t be able to and the school will provide a bursary. For a very small number this won’t be possible and there will be disruption. Which is sad for the individual child but already happens sometimes and there are worse things.

If schools start to struggle they will make changes. This might mean cutting down on staff. It might mean finding other streams of income (our old school could easily have rented out their facilities for example).

I mean, if they wanted to, they could even do a sliding scale of fees and the parents with the most pay the most and vice versa… but …

Yet every economist is predicting kids leaving and anecdotally it is currently around 5% before VAT even comes in. I understand you don't think they will leave but that's not what others who are paid to model and forecast believe. The disputed figure is the % however this data isn't formally collated (at the moment).
Each child that leaves indy costs the state £7-8K per year to educate.
If 10% leave then the net income of VAT is £0 yet that's 50,000+ kids displaced out of their schools and all the research proves how damaging moving schools can be for kids, especially at secondary level.
Ultimate it doesn't matter what any of us think, this will decided by the courts. Most likely dragged out over years at the cost of ££ to taxpayer

That wasn’t the case at ours. In fact they struggled with and tried to ‘manage out’ kids that didn’t fit.

The state sector needs to do better and be more able to adapt to individual learning needs. That’s true.

But the tax is broadly fair, IMO, all be it unfair for some. But the whole country is set up unfairly for millions. I’m really sorry, but life is unfair. For most parents using private education life is usually tipped in their favour so I can see how hard it must feel to have that balance upset. Especially if paying for education was to meet individual need. But perspective is needed.

Why did you choose private schools if you prefer lower inequality?

It is nothing to do with fairness. It is that education is zero rated across the while of Europe and much of the world. That's the point of principle. That Labour will make UK the only country in Europe to tax education for literally £0 net income.
Nothing to do with "keeping our privilege", it is a point of principle that governments don't tax education or seek to raise money on it.
Universities are already in scope due to BP setting the age limit to 19 so don't be fooled that this will end with indy schools

The most wealthy often aren’t complaining about this policy, because they’ve pre-paid fees and won’t be subject to the VAT.

How do you know I can "easily afford the increase"? Do you know the finances of every one of the parents of all 550,000 kids? It is this sweeping stereotype that infuriates me most. You must understand that the wages of parents in the NE are vastly under those in the South as 1 example?
Same argument was applied to WFA ie all pensioners are rich so they can afford the increase.

@Orchidzombiewatch what perspective is appropriate for me for my children on this? I mean, I have good credit rating, I'll remortgage if I have to and probably delay retirement but I know some of their friends will be leaving school if this goes through. I know them well. They re not "Sebastian and Arabella" to me or their parents. Again, IF this would help, I'd swallow it. But they will be harmed for no gain and there's no perspective that makes this right.

Again, IF this would help, I'd swallow it. But they will be harmed for no gain and there's no perspective that makes this right.

Exactly this. Children are being harmed for no gain. If it was raising money to improve the state sector, I could understand it more, but it isn’t.

I’d be more embarrassed by the U.K. being the only country in Europe to tax education than your friends being concerned about their children’s education to be honest.

As far as people publicly criticising Government policy, until Privilege Finder General becomes an official role and the U.K. leaves the ECHR you are going to have to ‘cringe’ through freedom of speech and plurality of education.

Going to a state school isn’t harming children, neither is moving schools. Kids up and down the country do it all the time.