To ask if anyone is clued up on the challenge this week to VAT on school fees?

[feesss]

we went to look round a school this morning and we obviously asked about VAT and the lady showing us round said there has been a challenge this week so it may not happen? Is anyone aware of this? I can’t see much online about it?

You are the type of person who I have massive sympathy for and I don’t actually agree with vat on education anyway, however the travesty is your case is not the vat on fees it’s the fact you had no other choice but to pay for private school in the first place in order that your children’s needs could be met. I have an autistic child so I know how bad the Sen system is in schools, I went down the route of getting ehcp and sending him to specialist but it very nearly broke me and he had very clear and obvious needs so it was less of a fight than it would have been if your child masks for example.

it just riles me a lot, I have never seen so many threads on mums net on one topic, vat on school fees, how unfair this is for Sen, court cases being brought, alot of people making a lot of noise etc etc. where were they all for the last 14 years when sen education has been going down the pan and people like you have been having to make massive sacrifices as you children’s needs can’t be met in state school. The people making all the noise weren’t bothered then as it didn’t effect them and now you and people in your position are being used because you fit someone’s else’s agenda.

@Morph22010 thank you. I appreciate that. That's what upsets me so much about this debate. The vitriol and spite directed at "Sebastian and Arabella" and glee that children will be disrupted. There is no conceivable way I can tell my kids they have to back to the schools that failed them so badly, allowed them to be bullied, threatened, terrorised and failed to recognise their SEN. I'll shoulder more debt and count the days / terms until I can get on an even keel again. An EHCP wasn't going to be an option - they fall into that bracket of "not bad enough" and my DS's ASD and ADHD diagnosis was ten years too late and again, had to be obtained privately because he would have been out of education by the time CAMHS could have actioned things. As I've said, I don't want luxury or privilege, or better grades or connections, just a classroom environment my kids can tolerate and learn in.

I was quite “lucky” as things started going very badly wrong for my child in year one, although I certainly didn’t feel lucky at the time. It still took until year 4 until we got him ehcp and in specialist but year one to year 4 you have time on your side whereas if they are year 7 or 8 when things and it’s going to take that time they’ll be finished school by time things are in place if ever so I totally understand your decision

get a grip

Tell that to the thousands of peri music teachers, lamda teachers, sports coaches etc - anyone whose work is billed as an ‘extra’ on top of the main ‘fees bill’ - who are being moved out of employment into ‘self employment’ contracts direct with parents, as a direct and entirely foreseeable result of this change. Collateral damage. These highly qualified teachers, most of whom already had zero hour employment contracts - their pensions, maternity rights, employment protections, all gone. No ‘workers rights’ for them. And none of the money for the 6000 teachers has been earmarked to plug the gaping hole in specialist music and arts provision in this country, exacerbated by this poorly researched policy.

I just don’t agree that it’s going to have a significantly negative impact on anyone other than a tiny tiny proportion of people

absolutely, it's a very small number of people who will need to pull their children from an independent school. I dont' know about the ethics of that - it's not fair if you're one of those children, particularly if you're a child who has previously struggled in the state sector and had found a level of peace and acceptance you know will now be removed. What you're ignoring, however, is the fact that there are potentially hundreds, if not thousands, of people working in independents who will lose their jobs - we're not just talking about teachers here but admin staff, ground staff, kitchen staff etc. Peripatetic staff will likely also suffer - if you're paying vat, you may have to knock the lamda and the music lessons on the head. It's pretty shit for all those people. Lots of ordinary people there, just doing a job, supporting their families, who will be impacted. Let's not forget them.

And let's not forget that this potentially opens up the space for vat on a whole manner of other educational costs including tutoring, dancing lessons, sports coaching etc. etc. etc. I worry about finding reason to put vat on childcare and university costs. It is naive to assume that this will only ever be a policy that affects the richest 7% of society. It's a start. We shouldn't assume it will be an end.

The ISC lost all credibility with me when they defended independent schools' blatant abuse of the system for grade inflation when public examinations were suspended due to Covid.

They were probably busy raising their kids, I really doubt they were off arguing in favour of some spite tax to make other parents lives harder.

I just don’t agree that it’s going to have a significantly negative impact on anyone other than a tiny tiny proportion of people.

The government estimates that 37,000 children will have to leave private school. Do those 37,000 not matter? In reality the figure is likely to be higher.

If the schools can’t tolerate a little bit of instability then they are not viable businesses. That is capitalism for you.

In that case, let’s ditch the business rates relief being given to leisure, hospitality and retail businesses. After all, if they can’t tolerate paying higher taxes, they’re not viable businesses. That’s capitalism for you.

Exactly so if they are still busy raising their kids why all the fake concern about Sen kids being effected by the vat, as I’ve said unthread I don’t agree with vat being charged on education full stop but I don’t like the fake concern and using people as part of an argument as they are useful at a particular point in time, by all means put together an argument but do it on your own merits- not you specifically but the legal challenge as a whole.

Who knows, perhaps they’re stressing about the thought of having to move their children from a school they’re happy in and thinking imagine how much worse it would be if they had SEN issues. Mumsnet users aren’t elected representatives responsible for the education of ALL children, that would be the education minster .,,perhaps you could question why she doesn’t seem to give the slightest f*ck rather than questioning the motives of people who do.

For some pupils (SEN for example) they may well be less suitable than the private schools they use. They may suit the academically-minded ones. No chance of finding out in this part of the world.

Labour will have the remaining Grammar schools in their sights anyway.

They already do. Then watch all the champagne socialists up in arms!

Why do you have to call people names? It doesn't elevate your cause, quite the opposite. It doesn't affect us as we are finished with school but you sound positively gleeful.

Not gleeful at all, I believe in choice unlike some on here.

And why are you calling people names? Weren't you a 'champagne socialist' yourself before Labour announced the VAT policy? How is 'Watch the champagne socialists up in arms then!' anything but gleeful? Schadenfreude.

Yes I most likely was 🤣 I have been called so many names on here due to opposing VAT that I don't think champ socialist comes near, especially when yes I would have classed myself as one.
Maybe that's the problem, receive enough toxicity from other people that you become immune to it yourself

It's not a good look.

Nothing if not predictable, of course each school will need several diversity officers to ensure indoctrination quotas and equality are met.

I reckon there are loads of children with ASD in some highly selective private schools like Westminster. They aren’t necessarily diagnosed. The thing about children with ASD but huge intelligence is that they really cannot thrive in noisy and disruptive environments. As these kids often grow up into adults with great jobs in tech and even accounting/actuary type work etc etc, if we fail these kids by scrapping private and selective schools or streams, then we are just going to all be poorer in the long run. I reckon a lot of boys at DS former grammar had ASD, many not formally diagnosed. The current set up in huge comps with lots of disruption/lunch and toilet queues just doesn’t work for these kids. They need quiet spaces and have their own learning needs. Many are very impatient with slower learners, they cannot necessarily help that, especially not when still relatively young. So many experience tremendous burn out if forced into the wrong environment and that is definitely happening all over. I visited a grammar recently and the head mentioned a child who was in the small learning hub until A levels and made it into Cambridge. Said child couldn’t manage joining the big classrooms but has huge learning potential.

The current standard education model fails a lot of children across the whole intelligence range. One size just doesn’t fit all. Where we are in London there happens to be a fair bit of choice in the state sector. It doesn’t sound like that is the case in many parts of the country. Children need tailored education to perform optimally and the sad truth is that successive governments simply don’t want to invest in children. It’s pubs/eat out to help out over children.

Do you know what, I don't care any more. I've spent 18 months being polite, courteous to people who attack my DD, her friends/peers and parents who make the same educational choices as myself. We've had a SoS making petty, divisive comments all over SM and people on here call me all the names under the sun.
I've had enough of being the bigger person now.
I'm extremely angry.
So i make no apologies for using a very vanilla term for a group of hypocrits, a group I once belonged to.
Sue me but I honestly don't care what you think.

@Orchidzombiewatch ”I fully support any policy that seeks to lessen the vast and obscene inequality in this country.”

seriously? This policy is going to widen the vast and obscene inequality in this country not lessen!! It’s a race to the bottom - so selfish. A lot of people value education and have made huge sacrifices.

The real rich people don’t give doot about the VAT as it’s a penny in their goldmine and they have PREPAID their fees so not VAT applied but it’s the low to middle class people that are suffering immensely as they can’t afford it and then forced to move schools. 35,000 is a low end estimate for the number of children directly affected - does their lives matter to you??

Sadly for me going forward and everybody else state class sizes are getting bigger and what this means is state school sizes will get bigger, kids will find it harder to get into their preferred school as the wealthier parents buy up the catchment. And sorry no one is going to see this 6500 extra teacher as this policy isn’t raising any funds at all by the end of it! Retention is a massive issue in this industry so not sure why any teacher want to join and teach classes of 35+ going forward especially now more and more kids have SEN or mental issues.

Of for goodness sake, in the words of the PP, Get a grip.

‘where were they all for the last 14 years ’

unconcerned as their darling offspring stand to gain from any drop in standards for the other 94%…

‘Sue me but I honestly don't care what you think.’

is suing the go to now for poshos who don’t get their way???