What have we done to our children?

[Flossflower]

https://www.theguardian.com/science/article/2024/sep/09/covid-lockdowns-prematurely-aged-girls-brains-more-than-boys-study-finds

I think we should never do this again even if it means killing off the oldies ( me included)!

What did we do? We Got approximately half of them to grow up a bit quicker in the hope that most of them get to keep their parents/Grandparents/disabled relatives.

I see there's no study into the tens of thousands of kids who are forced to be carers for loved ones. I'm sure they grow up real quick!

The researchers found structural changes in teenage brains brain differences with vastly more occurring in the girls they studied brains.

This is not some value judgment on who had it harder in lockdown - or based on your opinion who suffered more.

This is observed and reported unexpected changes in studied girls brains. They observed some changes in the boys but not to same extent.

No-one know what this means really. It could be changes better protected girls and it boys who are at higher risk - but at the minute girls brains show more changes which does suggest something has prompted sex differences in teen brain development in covid. Something that will need replicating and frankly looking at other countries studies would also be very informative - as I suggest UK lockdown was very different in lockdown to USA - and place like Finland different again.

Thankfully we do have actual researches who look into effects -and get their work judge by peers who will look at how samples were selected and work out if results are statistical significant - so it will emerge later on with more study what if anything this change means. Same with covid affects - people are doing the research now - so we have actual data to look at so don't have to rely on opinion.

I find it frustrating on here with working class boys education problems get shouted down by posters screaming what about the girls - but equally it frustrating when things that may adversely affect girls can't be spoken about with some insisting their son experiences trump any data or research.

I never understand looking back and hand wringing. What's the point of it? We dealt with the pandemic as best we could, and on the advice of the scientists at the time.

If you didn't die, and your kids didn't die, why not just feel grateful, and move on?

There were so many countries worse off than us. Very poor countries, with inadequate healthcare and housing. If you were lucky enough to sit safely in your cocoon (house) in the UK, not have to go to work (but still get paid), not have to expose your children to a deadly virus, AND get a free vaccine as soon as it was invented, then you are incredibly privileged.

If you are telling your children that they have been forever scarred by the pandemic, then you're just going to make them stress about it. Let them move on. Children need to be taught to be resilient, not turned in to worry warts.

You should be more worried about the fact that no one seems to able to function these days without taking a selfie / thinking up pointless hashtags / posting endless crap on SM, and that it's seemingly impossible to have a meal in a restaurant and actually talk to the people you're with, instead of mind numbingly scrolling on a phone. Add also, the easy access to porn, where women are endlessly slapped or treated roughly as the norm. This culture is fucking up our kids, way more than having a year or two at home.

Did you read the original paper here: https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.2403200121 ?

There's no discussion of mechanism, causality, or confounders. Is that normal in a psychology paper?

I agree with PP I bet it’s to do with the ridiculously excessive use of screens. I can’t believe schools use screen based programs for young children primary and start of secondary. It’s detrimental to development and does nothing to help learn basic skills or encourage healthy lifestyle habits against the sea of screens and digitalisation that we face in life.

I supported the closure of schools. Theres no point in a lockdown if you keep schools open - might as well have not bothered.
It sucked but most people just did the best we could with the information available to us at the time.

Confounders:
"Participants were excluded from the study if they were left-hand dominant (as determined by the Edinburgh Handedness Inventory); if English was not the primary language spoken in the home; if they had any history of speech, language, or hearing difficulties; if they had an uncorrected vision problem; if they had ever been diagnosed with a developmental or psychiatric disorder; if they had any surgical implants or dental work that could interfere with the MRI; if they identified as a different gender than that assigned at birth; or if they were taking psychotropic medications."

I haven't read the paper fully.

All of the issues being blamed on Covid were present beforehand, excessive screen time, social media exposure, not being allowed to play out etc. why were the scans gathered pre covid anyway? Were they ill? Were researchers already looking at this hypothesis before Covid, the girls brains age quicker than boys?

Of those families I knew with primary aged kids or younger at lockdown, their kids benefited hugely from the time out from the rat race, parent(s) on furlough, or working from home in some cases, family time spent going for walks, playing games etc as the normal busy life of clubs and activities ceased. My own kids were young adults and it did mess with their "university experience" but the two more affected had underlying issues which were the problem not covid, the other "normal" one thrived and probably got a better degree as less distractions

YABU. You can spend your whole life being scared by, pointless, pseudo scientific studies, if you chose to.

It doesn't explain why any of those variables might be confounders though. And generally a confounder would be common to the whole sample. It just seems to be one of those "extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" situations.

They make the extraordinary claim that "...the lockdown measures enacted during the COVID-19 pandemic resulted in unusually accelerated brain maturation in adolescents..." but offer absolutely no proof of the claim. I would at least expect a discussion of possible causal mechanisms. Unless they are using "resulted" as a weasel word to avoid implying causality when they have only demonstrated correlation.

Why shouldn't someone feel good that their children are happy and healthy ? Yes children suffer every single day in this country due to their parents/guardians, it is bloody heartbreaking and we can all wring our hands but it doesn't and shouldn't stop us being thankful for our own children's health. We can all donate as much money as we can but that doesn't stop us from buying our children gifts. Many children will never have a holiday or a day out but i bet you go on holiday and have days out. Do you think we should do none of those things ?

There's no evidence from that article that 'we" have done anything though, even the article concludes there is no suggestion the changes are negative.

That headline is based off the results of 30 girls. I'll take with a pinch of salt.

I am in France and I have seen almost no negative effects of the lockdowns etc of the sort referred to here, things went back to normal pretty much as soon as schools returned and I rarely hear it talked about. The difference I think is that the lockdowns were much better organised in France, and information was far more cogent here, both info from the media and info from the government. It felt streamlined, better organised, more sensible and better informed. Rules were strict but not inhuman. The schools were very well organised, sending out weekly work by email and zooms available. Vaccinations were well organised and again the info was more streamlined. There seemed to be better organised social net arrangements - re children in need or businesses in trouble - I don't have personal experience but the information provided to everyone seemed very clear. Addresses by Macron were good. Feels like the good ol' days at the moment! In the UK, judging by the media and threads on MN, it seemed bonkers by comparison.

The long term consequences in france have been more to do with economic consequences. But this is also all affected by other factors which have happened since lockdown.

The problems which the UK faced I feel may have been to do with how the UK handled covid and how it handles education and governance generally. There seemed to be a lot of unnecessary confusion and incorrect information on the media. Schools in the UK at the time had pre-existing problems which did not exist in France at the time, and covid possibly was the tipping point. Parenting and expectations of parents in France is different from the UK too.

This is just my impression though.

I think next time no, we should not let oldies die. We should be better prepared earlier and listen to good science. We were being forewarned by good science in January, yet not much happened for months. Lockdown in itself was the right thing to do, the problem was not lockdown, or masks, but how it was organised.

If you really believe this then... You're kind of a sociopath.

My daughter does still bear some scars (physical too sadly) from lockdown I do think she’s moving beyond that now. From falling behind with work in year 8-9 she walked out with all 9’s at GCSE and I do think that was a bit of a f you to all who doubted her during that period.

On GCSE day they asked a headmaster what affect covid had on this lot of students (the final year who were in secondary when lockdown started) and he said we can’t let covid define a generation. We have to find ways to move on.

If we're going to hark bark to those times let's bring up another phrase on the time. Correlation is not causation?

Does the part say the changes were caused by lockdown? Was it just school closing or everywhere closing outside of school, was it stress of worrying about relatives or actual COVID infection...

It wasn't just 'oldies' it would have killed. Lockdown prevented the NHS being overwhelmed - which it was - so that sick children and parents could be treated for whatever they were ill with or accidental injuries, as well as those sick with Covid.

And even Covid didn't only kill the old, pre-vaccinations. My cousin died age 35 from Covid, because he was medically vulnerable. He was unwell, yes, but not expected to die.

Of course lockdowns were not ideal, and of course living through a pandemic has had negative effects on the population.

Absolutely this.

I was stuck in the UK in the first Lockdown for a few weeks. When I got back to France it was a totally different experience. We weren't having the fear rhetoric shoved down our throats at every moment for starters.

I agree with you. It is foul really and MN is full of this stuff.
It seems to be quite acceptable.

Loads of people on here DO beleive this and it is a common thread that is dressed up as something different.

'Lets kill off all the oldies eh!'
'It's the oldies fault that we can't get on the property ladder!'
'Why shouldn't the 'oldies/Baby boomers pay more tax?'
And yesterday's classic "I'm just 'curious to know what will happen when all the Baby boomers die off'

FFS

Tbf we've just seen a vote on that in the commons, according to the gov's own previous research

I didn't experience what happened in France, but I can well believe this. The worst thing about the UK was the communication from the government, swinging from one extreme to the other so many times: from "tell the public there is nothing to worry about" to "the only way we can control the public is to frighten the pants off them".

I object to your comment "killing off the oldies". You do realise right that there are a lot of vulnerable people in this country who contribute to society? Not just old people.

So basically should I just infect my husband with covid and let him die? A man in his early 40's who not only has two children but is a higher tax payer, worked full time during the whole pandemic and manages his own healthcare. Just to punish him from having to have a solid organ transplant in his early twenties?

My DD was 11 months old when the first lockdown came round. She is in year 1, flying and academically ahead of most of her peers. We had to shield for 18 months, she didn't see anyone else but her dad and me during that time. Blaming Covid for every little issue that children are struggling with is not necessarily the answer. The pandemic was 4 years ago now, today's 4 and 5 year olds have had time in nursery, opportunities for early intervention etc. I look at the current reception intake at my children's school and the parents are definitely different to those from my daughter's year. Much more insecure, clingy, not wanting to let their child go and generally much more emotional. I think this has probably bred children who are on the edge emotionally, immature and appear behind compared to other years. Older children who remember lockdowns then yes I can see why there might be long term issues there but reception age not so much.