Are these somewhat extreme views?

[confusedthirtysomething2]

I’ve changed a few details…

My niece (let’s call her Stella) visited for the summer. She’s just graduated from Oxford and spent a lot of time protesting for Palestine. I’m half Ashkenazi but I completely understand the backlash against the Israeli govt and what they’re doing. However, some of her views concerned me and I don’t know whether I’m being over dramatic.

Firstly, something about Palestinians being the original levantines and Jews in Israel are European converts.

It’s a myth that democracy is the right/only way to run a country.

The Islamic revolution in Iran was a backlash against American imperialism so the pictures of women in Iran prior to the Islamic revolution was never what the people wanted and it’s only the past ten years they’ve had a fascist government.

Japan are only rebelling against China for independence because they’ve forgotten their own heritage and have been brainwashed by the west.

She’s always been very left but I found these views quite fringe. She’s a lovely, intelligent woman (always had straight As) but I’m worried she’s on a slippery slope. Or AIBU because I’m not really used to having my worldview challenged? I live in a rural town and never went to uni.

Yes these are extreme views.

I am pretty left wing, and I’d be concerned.

Did you mean Taiwan rather than Japan?

Some of these viewpoints - including promoting authoritarian alternatives to democracy- are classic Chinese propaganda (distributed widely on TikTok and many other places including university campuses!)

@Imperfectionist thought so.

Not sure re China. I’m not that clued up about geopolitics so I didn’t feel confident enough to debate her.

I think I'd have to keep saying "gosh, where did you hear that?" with wide eyed naivety.

Don't let her just make statements. Get her to explain.

(I say that, but she'll get cross with you questioning right-think so possibly not if you want to keep the relationship. You've probably already been labelled an imperialist dog.)

Yes they are extreme / fringe views.

1. This is a view which aims to delegitimise Israel’s right to exist.
2. Democracy question - While it could theoretically be a philosophical debate, in light of everything else I’d be concerned about it being more about support for authoritarian regimes.
3. This downplays the current regimes oppression, and also legitimises poor treatment of women by marginalising those who support women’s rights and freedoms.
4. Brainwashing is a conspiracy theory take. Edited to add this is also racist, suggesting Japan (or Taiwan if that is the case) lacks the agency to think for themselves and is merely a puppet of the West.

They are extreme views but I'm fairly sure most of them come from social media rather than she's done the research herself. It's quite scary how people are just believing anything posted on tiktok just because it name drops a couple of random 'research studies'

Jews in Israel are European converts.

I've seen this, and some really awful racism about Jewish people on social media recently. Stuff that really makes my skin crawl, effectively supporting a Jewish genocide on the basis of what some Jewish people look like. It's got absolutely nothing to do with the atrocity of what is happening in Palestine and absolutely everything to do with a chance for extreme racist views to be expressed.

What was her degree in? Depending on the subject, she should be used to having her views robustly challenged in tutorials.

Yes they are extreme views and I'd really struggle to be around someone like this.

Well, if she actually said Japan, then neither is she. Oxford, you say?

Sounds like she's got some interesting views and I'd take the opportunity to ask her questions about them, rather than dismiss them.

Firstly, something about Palestinians being the original levantines and Jews in Israel are European converts.

Never heard this, so I'd ask her what she means.

It’s a myth that democracy is the right/only way to run a country.

Interesting view! What are the alternatives?

The Islamic revolution in Iran was a backlash against American imperialism so the pictures of women in Iran prior to the Islamic revolution was never what the people wanted and it’s only the past ten years they’ve had a fascist government.

Not too sure what this means. I'm sure the women of Iran preferred their freedom. Where did the idea that people didn't enjoy greater freedom come from?

Japan are only rebelling against China for independence because they’ve forgotten their own heritage and have been brainwashed by the west.

Taiwan, surely. They don't want to go back to China because it's an authoritarian state with little freedom. Look what's happening to Hong Kong.

I don't think her views are extreme at all. I've heard much more extreme views on MN.

@TheCrenchinglyMcQuaffenBrothers We were talking about Japan, China, and Hong Kong so she probably said Hong Kong. Please forgive my ignorance I’m not clued up enough at all 😂

She’s not lovely. Maybe she used to be but to have embraced these views she must be a bit of a twat: a misogynist, antisemitic authoritarian.

If young people really are being brainwashed like this by the Chinese through tiktok shouldn't tiktok be banned? I see China as very like Russia was during the Cold War (ie our enemies). These are extreme opinions imo.

The country doesn’t particularly matter because the whole premise is flawed. Racist conspiracy theory territory.

I mean she's not that intelligent or lovely is she? Lovely, intelligent people don't spout that nonsense.

It's not about challenging your personal world view, it's about the comments she's making being inherently racist, degrading and offensive. She's essentially claiming these people don't know their own history - because if you actually speak to an Iranian (or spend time there) you can easily see she is talking twaddle.

I couldn't stand being around her tbh.

Yes, these are extreme views. And not actually left-wing, either.

Very much extremist and PREVENT may be interested in her.

Shes got dangerous and scary views. Imagine who else she could spread her misinformed, hateful and harmful opinions too.

Imagine considering yourself left-wing yet being really quite supportive of China and Iran 😂

It's a complete contradiction in beliefs isn't it.

Very very much so, I'm afraid. I'm a lefty but definitely subscribe to the meme of the far-left becoming so extreme us ordinary lefties are finding the ground beneath our feet shifting to centrist when our position hasn't changed at all.

Just this week a mutual on a social media platform shared some blatant Chinese propaganda about how China puts its money into infrastructure rather than wars 😵‍💫, a shiny video of bridges & transport networks etc - the mutual is a former regional director of public health.

'That's nice, dear'
'Gosh, how fascinating. I didn't know people believed that.'
'How very interesting.'

And so on. Grey rock her until she grows the fuck up.

I would ask more questions as you seem confused about what she is saying (understandably, sounds like she has launched into some proper diatribes), and so there may be some miscommunication. Ask her what her sources are.
regarding Jews in Israel, I read an argument recently that creating the Israeli state was in part a form of antisemitism in its own way, by the west wanting to create a home for Jewish people somewhere far away from Europe. and yes, European Jews were settled there on Palestinian land and is felt by many to be a colonial project. This will be very easily taken out of context so I’m not going to argue with anyone about it, it’s just something to look into for anyone who cares but I know that the history of the region is complicated and you shouldn’t just dismiss what she’s saying.
also, when you start learning about geopolitics, it is staggering, shocking and often very different to what we get taught in this country. So you may hear some surprising things, it doesn’t mean she is a bigot or being radicalised. Just talk to her, even if it’s just about one thing, have a respectful conversation, ask questions, take time to go off and research.
if she is going off down the wrong path, your genuine interest may be the thing that helps her see she’s wrong.
If you’re any or do this You might want to do a bit of reading about critical thinking skills because at university that is what she will be learning about, and it does make quite a bit of difference when you are sifting through information to know how to respond to different sources. Mumsnet is not a particularly good source on political stuff imo as it’s very polarised and people tend to be reactive and make a lot of unsubstantiated claims

I like PP's suggestion of widening your eyes and saying, 'Gosh, where have you heard that from?' You could then ask, 'Can you send me a link - I'd like to know more.' Then you can see whether her sources are valid or not.

As PP said, she should be used to her views being robustly challenged in tutorials so don't be shy of doing this but expect quite vehement responses.

I would start with: what source are you using for that belief? (E.g. on original Levantine people; on US Imperialism and women's freedom.) Have you checked its validity?
I'd also ask: Can you think of valid reasons why your views might be challenged?

If you don't like that sort of semi aggressive tutorial back and forth (which is daunting if you haven't been to uni and you might burn out way before she does if she's used to it) you could try the opposite.Listen and then say very gently, I have listened very carefully and respectfully to your point of view and now it is time for you to do the same for me. I have a very different outlook, and frankly, a different set of equally verifiable facts that challenge the ones you are adopting.' And then explain you own experience and point of view.