Are these somewhat extreme views?

[confusedthirtysomething2]

I’ve changed a few details…

My niece (let’s call her Stella) visited for the summer. She’s just graduated from Oxford and spent a lot of time protesting for Palestine. I’m half Ashkenazi but I completely understand the backlash against the Israeli govt and what they’re doing. However, some of her views concerned me and I don’t know whether I’m being over dramatic.

Firstly, something about Palestinians being the original levantines and Jews in Israel are European converts.

It’s a myth that democracy is the right/only way to run a country.

The Islamic revolution in Iran was a backlash against American imperialism so the pictures of women in Iran prior to the Islamic revolution was never what the people wanted and it’s only the past ten years they’ve had a fascist government.

Japan are only rebelling against China for independence because they’ve forgotten their own heritage and have been brainwashed by the west.

She’s always been very left but I found these views quite fringe. She’s a lovely, intelligent woman (always had straight As) but I’m worried she’s on a slippery slope. Or AIBU because I’m not really used to having my worldview challenged? I live in a rural town and never went to uni.

@Technonan how utterly abhorrent! That poor family!

I agree, it is absolutely revolting. I'm hoping that in the six years since this happened that the family have received at least some form of justice and that the disgusting extremists were dealt with by the police.

The problem is that the poster is trying to imply that it's an every day, mainstream occurrence somehow representative of Judaism and/or Zionism. Which it isn't.

Zionism is an extreme point of view. It is Zionism, for example, that is driving the illegal settlers in the West Bank who are occupying Palestinian land, attacking Palestinian people and driving them off their farms

There is a very unpleasant trend at the moment by some to change the definition of Zionism so that it includes support of illegal settlers...this then means they can demonise Zionism entirely. It's pretty transparent.

Zionism is not an extreme view at all

🙌🏼🙌🏼🙌🏼🙌🏼

Internet disinformation and the battle lines it has drawn between generations and communities is the great scourge of our age.

Ain't that the truth?!

Scary really.

These are exactly the sorts of views that led to me falling out with one of my closest friends. She also became pro-Putin and said Ukraine should just give him what he wants. She refused to agree to disagree. I have no idea where it all came from.

Seems like TikTok is having precisely the effect the Chinese owners hoped. How fucking depressing. And terrifying. Views like this are why my daughter's Jewish preschool has police and security guards patrolling outside.

Zionism is Jewish people wanting the right for self-determination in their homeland, the place the religion comes from. The only place our holy sites exist.

Genuine question to you as you have no doubt thought about it - holy wars have been fought over that area for centuries because the Jewish, Muslim and Christian religions see the area as a very important holy site, and peoples of all such religions have ties there. It is also true that the British handled the situation very badly during the 1st ww and afterwards, and the bitter disputes and hatred could have been avoided. We are where we are now, and on the basis that neither the Muslim people nor the Jewish people should be driven out, and both want either self determination or (some groups want) democratic shared determination, what should the future hold? How should the land be split? What should happen in Gaza? How do we stop the hate?

I'll never forget a friend telling me I was in a cult because I don't believe people can change sex or are born in the wrong body. Erm...

Before I went to an Oxbridge college I imagined it was full of brilliant eccentrics. I got there and realised it was full of people who were completely conformist. Studying incessantly for most of your young adult life does not lead to free or radical thinking.

Also been faced with an Oxford graduate who didn’t believe in biological sex. I’m avoiding talking to them about anything else incase I get the rages.

But yeah it’s a distorted lens of reality. Can’t believe that they think Japan/Taiwan should basically be forced under a sphere of influence that they don’t want. She does realise that the islamists turned on the communists in Iran after the revolution (going to go ahead and assume she thinks she’s a communist) and as pp mentioned murdered them.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5Peima-Uw7w

This is a good watch, it attempts to explain why smart people believe stupid things.

Orwell nailed it with “Some ideas are so stupid that only intellectuals believe them.”

That was a good watch, thank you. I read a review on this book recently https://www.amazon.co.uk/Lies-My-Liberal-Teacher-Told-ebook/dp/B0BDZMZJ4C it's on my reading list.

I really don’t feel intellectuals are the problem. Especially given the strongly anti-intellectual streak in British society.

Two state solution. The plan was never to get rid of anyone not Jewish, despite what certain posters would like you to believe. I mean, the population of Israel today is something like 30% non-Jewish. I just wish so many people would stop trying to delegitimise Jewish connections to the land in question.

I don't have any answers for your other questions though. Not sure anyone does.

She does not sound "lovely"... these views are sickening.

Tat depends. In the UK, sure.

In Australia or Canada? Racist to say it to a recent immigrant, but if you are First Nations you can tell the "settlers" to go back. (Not that it's possible for them to do so.)

Given the 3 major religions (Christianity, Judaism and Islam) all hold very similar beliefs, all have the same people present in their texts, all hold the same core values. It really concerns me that the Pope, Archbishop of Canterbury, Chief Rabbi and Senior Imam don't join forces and tell their arsehole factions to stop behaving like twats because they're ruining it for everyone.

I recognise Islam is going through a state of being we saw in Christianity in the 16th century (Protestants Vs Catholics and Shia Vs Sunni) but all this is now reading like a cultural war not a religious one. It's not Islam Vs Judaism, it's the middle east Vs Israel, look into the background of Hamas, why and how it formed, why Egypt won't allow it's members back into it's country. A lot of racial tensions in the world are cultural clashes.

70% of Brexiteers didn’t have any higher education, never mind a degree from Oxford. Higher education isn’t everything, but when people with low levels of education vote very differently to those with degrees and above, it does indicate differences in the way they think. Incidentally, Reform also did better amongst the lower educated in the recent election.

"I love the poorly educated" says Donald Trump and why wouldn't he? Where would he be without them? But a cult is a cult and if you're ripe for indoctrination you'll fall for it regardless.

@Runsyd

Or as Thomas Sowell said:

"Socialism in general has a record of failure so blatant that only an intellectual could ignore or evade it."

The views aren't automatically extremist but they are a bit worrying.

Firstly, something about Palestinians being the original levantines and Jews in Israel are European converts.

The current Jewish population of Israel largely exists because of the Zionist movement that kicked off in the late 19th century. I wouldn't call them "european converts" but European Jews maybe. There's no doubt that the Zionist movement is controversial and was at the time and there's a lot of history to unpack there. Early 20th century Jewish settlers and the European powers do not come off well when you look at the history. It's not inherently anti-semitic to be clear on the facts about the creation of modern Israel. Or is she talking about the original Israelites from thousands of years ago?

It’s a myth that democracy is the right/only way to run a country.

Technically correct, it isn't the only way to govern a country. Most of the world believes it is the right way but democracy isn't a monolithic thing, it looks different depending on how it's structured and it isn't always fair depending on who you ask.

The Islamic revolution in Iran was a backlash against American imperialism so the pictures of women in Iran prior to the Islamic revolution was never what the people wanted and it’s only the past ten years they’ve had a fascist government.

I don't know a lot about Iran specifically but "western imperialism", like it or not, has shaped the history of the modern middle-east and we have a lot to answer for. That's not conspiracy theory, it's demonstrable fact. I wouldn't dismiss this view out of hand without understanding more but I'd imagine it's far more nuanced than she believes it to be.

Japan are only rebelling against China for independence because they’ve forgotten their own heritage and have been brainwashed by the west.

Does she mean Taiwan? Taiwan is essentially original China before the communist revolution. The government who were losing the war fled to Taiwan. There has been years of dispute over this and how it's been recognised on the international stage. I don't know what she means by forgetting their heritage and how that relates to their current situation.

The problem is that she's young, politically aware and wants to change the world but her thinking is probably very black and white because she's not experienced enough to understand all the nuance of these issues. Western powers have interfered massively in the development of the rest of the world and she's trying to make sense of it all but these issues are extremely complex. The worst thing you can do is dismiss her views as extremist without understanding more about where she's coming from because it's likely to push her further to the fringes.

Just keep talking to her. It is only by discussing things with people we can hope to persuade them of other views. A lot of students are left wing but soon change their tune as they go out into the wider world, get jobs, see ordinary people etc. The shades of grey in life tend to become obvious as you get older. For men the male brain does not even fully develop until age 25.

People have all sorts of opinions. I don't think those are particularly "extremist", maybe just a different perspective or maybe ill informed

I'd be talking to her about why she thinks that, and giving the other side to explore her views. Writing it off as "wrong think" or "extreme" is unhelpful.

If you really can't tolerate her views, I'd be cutting back contact and not discussing those topics.

Reporting to "Prevent" as PP says is quite unnecessary.

There's no doubt that the Zionist movement is controversial

Many people, including myself, would disagree with this statement.