To think the penalties for term time absence is ridiculous..

[JKbowling]

I got this in my email inbox today, sent to all parents and guardians.

"Failure to safeguard a child's education" appearing on your DBS, really?

As for term time holidays. If a family can't afford to pay for their one measly UK break per year to be had during the 6 weeks holidays (because the prices are hiked right up and become unaffordable) how does school suppose said family is going to pay the fine?

If ofsted didn't judge schools harshly on attendance maybe the school could say "go on holiday, it won't be authorised, but you won't be fined, and don't expect the teachers to spend time with your child to catch up on work they have missed."

Or is this unrealistic?

Is that your approach to all fines? So the problem with speeding fines is it gives the impression that you can speed as long as you pony up the required fee?

Yeah I remember people saying " oh I knew this when you had kids" at the bloody time. Well no I didn't actually Mine were born in the early 90s
.And still after that you could get authorisation from head teacher for up to 10 days off.

Most of the earlier fines were for persistent truanters not a one off holiday

And if your kids were born outside the UK then you may not have known about the draconian measures. A friend of mine had her kids in Spain. Her husband often worked away in winter in a different country. The school was fine with her taking the kids out for a week so they could visit their father. They agreed that family time was important and kids needed to see their father. When she came back to the UK she didn't know how strict the rules were here

And still after that you could get authorisation from head teacher for up to 10 days off.

Yes, The two holidays we took DD out of primary school in 2007 and 2008 were authorised. However, that was in years 3 and 4. We didn't take her out of school during term time after that though.

I agree that anyone having children now knows perfectly well that taking term time holidays are frowned on.

An aquaintance of mine's in laws always used to pay for term time holidays for the whole family - usually a two week cruise. On one occasion it was in the May just before one of the DC was taking GCSEs. The children were not high achievers and none of the children did well at school.

Then why are terms in private schools shorter?

Also, that's a population based fact. Sometimes the needs of the individual differs from the average

Then why are terms in private schools shorter?

Usually the days are longer.

When DD was at secondary school she had 5 x 1 hour lessons a day. Her best friend at private school had 6 x 1 hour lessons a day.

Oh, have a little compassion. - I doubt it was a literal statement. Those events are really important, and it's devastating to miss them. Miss a few in a row, and it "missing everything" is how it feels.

Private school terms being shorter is irrelevant - they plan their curriculum to be delivered over the number of weeks they run for? It’s not about the length of time, it’s about not missing chunks of learning.

The ones I've known have very similar hours.

I really, really doubt that 6 full educational hours in the day really carries any benefit. I know I'm not concentrating during hour 6 on a training day.

Well that is an actual massive problem. Parking fines especially are a non issue for the wealthy and life altering for others.

There was an issue with Cambridge or Oxford library fines because people protested giving students community service instead of fines. Yet for many of the students, fines weren't a consideration and for others they were punitive.

This is it. Education and whether or not you get a good one depends largely on your parents attitude.

We already have a mental health crisis in our young people in their 20s to the point that it may affect the GDP long term.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-02-26/uk-risks-lost-generation-with-young-in-mental-health-crisis

Having had a very hard couple of years, recently the only thing that kept me going was knowing I was going on holiday.

And yes, perhaps I have kept going without one, as you’ll pile on and say but I’d probably be on anti depressants by now.

Going on holiday for me during holidays is too expensive, I can't afford it. Can I take a week or two off during term time? I'm a teacher...

Fair question.

Speeding, I think, is different, because it's a criminal offence and it involves other sanctions - such as points on the driving licence.

Parking fines would be a good equivalent. And, yeah, it does appear that many people - those with enough money - feel that a parking fine is pretty much a fee for leaving their Range Rover on a double yellow outside Harvey Nichols.

But, no, that's not my approach. I didn't say it was. I was suggesting that it was a possible perception of the way in which the deterrent is applied.

The other problem, of course, with a flat fine in any situation, it that its deterrent effect is inversely proportional to the wealth of the offender. Which doesn't seem fair to me at all.

@Sherrystrull I agree with you to a large extent. Like everything it’s a question of degree.Personally I think my kids have missed two days - the final day of a school term in one case and a Friday in another. My judgment was that it wouldn’t do any harm for lots of reasons including the fact that they are WGD and miss school for illness incredibly rarely. But it’s a different equation in every case.

If a family can save hundreds of £££ by going in term time, I understand why some would choose that given the background in Covid etc even if it isn’t something I would do. That money can be spent on clubs or just make life easier. And a child is just part of the family - parents need holidays too and their stress/money worries etc are all valid.

Perhaps government/schools need to focus more on why it’s harmful to take lots of time out? I don’t think that is widely understood or communicated. I think increasingly there is a mistrust between parents and schools that is really unhelpful. Coupled with the fact that many feel education isn’t working for their kids. Like it or not the stance of do what we say because we know what’s best for your kids has, I think, been undermined.

It’s also a rolling stone, once friends take time off and families see others getting a cheaper break by missing school, it becomes much more acceptable for them to do it too.

Private primary school parent here - our days are generally to 4:30 or 5:30 and the holidays are longer so we can take them away before the main school hols when it is cheaper. Ironically we can also take them out of school and they won't fine us. So I think that so long as it's only a couple of days and not a regular habit then it is fine- it's all about context and I absolutely do not blame parents wanting to take advantage of cheaper holidays for quality time together. That is entirely different to persistent truancy.

...good point. And one that gives rise to another question, which is...

Why do we have school holidays at all? Every other human activity happens all year round, and people take time off in order to have holidays. The world doesn't grind to a halt when policemen or nurses or plumbers take a fortnight off with their families. Why do we shut schools down for weeks at a time? It's a pain for parents, it inflates vacation costs, it's a logistical nightmare for all sorts of reasons.

Why not have school five days a week, and everyone gets however many days vacation is agreed, to be taken anytime outside of exams?

I mean, I can see a few arguments against, but there are quite a few arguments against school holidays too, so it's a question of balancing the pros and cons.

I agree with you.

It's a sign that the relationship between families has schools has suffered massively through the covid period and despite trying to raise awareness of lack of funding, lack of support for children and SEND, many parents see strikes as being selfish on the part of teachers.

If we had smaller classes we could support those having term time holidays,
If there was more flexibility for school staff to themselves take term time holidays.
If we had more support staff then we could support those having term time holidays.

We can no longer invite parents into our school to build that relationship. We have children with significant needs who wouldn't cope and no staff to help them.

To be honest, no, I don't think that a problem. That's not that many, considering how many school children there are. The last week of term, nobody gets anything done. So no, not a big issue.

@Whatevs12345 i sympathise with your stance because I had teacher parents. But it is a bit different. Your job requires you by contract to work in term time because at any one time you will presumably have most of a class of kids to teach. Just as I can’t take time off when there is essential work to do for my customers, even if not all of them need me all of the time I’m working. If you don’t want to do that you can find another job.

its a really weak argument to say that because you can’t have cheaper holidays, neither should another group of people. What I have loads more sympathy with is teachers explaining that they have put lots of their time and resource into helping children reach attainment levels and that is undermined by chunks of avoidable time off. But I think this is rarely well articulated.

Surely there is a commitment of parents to give their child an education and the best chance of success in life? Isn't that what we all want as parents?? One week might be fine but two weeks every year is not. And as a teacher times have changed massively since your parents day. There is an expectation to be available constantly. I spent 8 days in school over the summer working with students...not in my contract but if I didn't kids would suffer.

Yes, that is literally the exact way some people feel about parking fines, and any really. Especially where the amount is lower if you can pay it quickly. I thought everyone knew that. Was one of the big criticisms of the covid fine system too, for example.

So the point about it being seen as essentially a payment for something you want is a good one. It's almost like the whole fining system is fundamentally flawed...

DS was one of them he missed 5 days
1 day beach trip - it rained and we went to beach with his friends on other days (we live near the coast but very northern it's never sunny)
1 day sports day
2 "normal days" - ice cream van visit etc
Half day on the Friday as leaver assembly

Not a lot of learning missed and he hasn't been off the rest of year as he's not soft staying at home with a cold.

@prh47bridge that is my attitude to fines it's a cost for a decision and is sufficient "punishments" for civil issues which is what schools is. How you parent shouldn't come into the criminal system.

Speeding is a grey area if it's not sufficient to go down the dangerous driving route in my opinion it shouldn't attract points either.

@Whatevs12345 My Mum retired a year ago and spent many hours over and above contracted working plus during the holidays of course. But she obviously did have flexibility to decide when to go away within those 14 weeks off and she wasn’t legally obligated to work unlike during the school day in term time. I’m not saying that teachers don’t more or less universally work over their hours, they do. What I’m saying is that you are literally bound by contract not to have time off for holidays in term time.

i think you will find that almost every parent has a commitment to education. What is missing is parents really believing that a couple of weeks out of school harms their education. In fact many believe that having a holiday enhances their education more than being at school. Like it or not having time out for Covid and strikes has implied that time out of school doesn’t matter that much. If the government believes that kids could have months and months out in one go, why would a week or two make a huge difference? Particularly if a kid is accessing something the family couldn’t afford to do in the holidays.

i don’t know what the answer is. But it’s definitely not going to convince parents if teachers give the main reason as being that they can’t take time off in term time. Particularly after the strikes. The best hope I think is being honest about how holidays really impact a child’s life chances. Most parents just don’t see that I’m afraid. And to be honest I’m not sure I do either. I suspect the reduced life chances for persistent absentees is about far far more than the time spent on holiday off school.

I’m guessing it’s a charity …..that doesn’t have a bottomless pit of money