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To think the penalties for term time absence is ridiculous..

1000 replies

JKbowling · 05/09/2024 21:47

I got this in my email inbox today, sent to all parents and guardians.

"Failure to safeguard a child's education" appearing on your DBS, really?

As for term time holidays. If a family can't afford to pay for their one measly UK break per year to be had during the 6 weeks holidays (because the prices are hiked right up and become unaffordable) how does school suppose said family is going to pay the fine?

To think the penalties for term time absence is ridiculous..
OP posts:
noblegiraffe · 06/09/2024 16:29

So many posters saying 'it's fine to take them out in the last week of the year, they do fuck-all then anyway'.

First: a lot of schools teach in the last week of term. If there really are schools that are 'watching films all week' when they should be told to pull their finger out, not form the basis of a government policy saying that school is optional that week.

Second: 'I think it's fine that parents take their kids out the last week of term' - those parents are relying on everyone else sending their kid into school to make their holiday cheaper. If that week is deemed the week that it's ok for you to take your kid on a term time holiday, then holiday companies will adjust their prices accordingly.

Third: If it's fine to take your kid out at the end of year because they are doing fuck-all, then presumably it's not ok to take your kid out when it's not the end of year because they are doing learning. Therefore, the government should attempt to do something about the vast swathes of parents who are increasingly doing this. However, the government can't come up with a policy that sanctions term time holidays 'unless it's the last week because that's a doss week'.

noblegiraffe · 06/09/2024 16:30

User6874356 · 06/09/2024 15:59

I agree. Especially in primary school, it makes no difference.

why is it ok for kids to do a school trip in term time? Why is that not doing irreversible damage to their education?

They are called 'educational visits' because the kids are on them to learn stuff that supports the curriculum, not spend the day on a sun lounger.

Changeagain3 · 06/09/2024 16:33

noblegiraffe · 06/09/2024 16:30

They are called 'educational visits' because the kids are on them to learn stuff that supports the curriculum, not spend the day on a sun lounger.

So if with schools it's educational but same trip with parents isn't?

Peakpeakpeak · 06/09/2024 16:40

First: a lot of schools teach in the last week of term. If there really are schools that are 'watching films all week' when they should be told to pull their finger out, not form the basis of a government policy saying that school is optional that week.

But they haven't. So meanwhile, the people accurately describing their schools as doing nothing much are in the right about the value of what's actually being missed. Even if you wish they weren't.

noblegiraffe · 06/09/2024 16:41

Changeagain3 · 06/09/2024 16:33

So if with schools it's educational but same trip with parents isn't?

Again with the idea that parents are taking their kids on purely educational trips replete with worksheets and follow-up work. They aren't.

planAplanB · 06/09/2024 16:42

Private school kids break up for the summer near the beginning of July and benefit from holidays costing less.
Get to the end of July, when state schools break up and the cost of the holiday has gone up. Go figure?

noblegiraffe · 06/09/2024 16:44

Peakpeakpeak · 06/09/2024 16:40

First: a lot of schools teach in the last week of term. If there really are schools that are 'watching films all week' when they should be told to pull their finger out, not form the basis of a government policy saying that school is optional that week.

But they haven't. So meanwhile, the people accurately describing their schools as doing nothing much are in the right about the value of what's actually being missed. Even if you wish they weren't.

I suspect some exaggeration is going on tbh, but the correct response to a school completely pissing away a week of a child's education is to complain to the school.

JKbowling · 06/09/2024 16:46

I need to catch up on the replies but thought I'd update about my conversation with my DD's school attendance officer today.

I had applied for holiday absence leave at the end of June for this week coming and she forgot to let me know it had been approved.

Long story short it has been and she doesn't agree with the new guidance on absence at all, she thinks it's draconian and actually said she hates her job at the minute. Poor woman. It must be really crap being in her position and tasked with enforcing something like this.

OP posts:
noblegiraffe · 06/09/2024 16:47

planAplanB · 06/09/2024 16:42

Private school kids break up for the summer near the beginning of July and benefit from holidays costing less.
Get to the end of July, when state schools break up and the cost of the holiday has gone up. Go figure?

What do you mean go figure? It's supply and demand. Only a tiny fraction of families use private schools so them being on holiday creates less demand than state schools being on holiday.

TheGoogleMum · 06/09/2024 16:47

noblegiraffe · 05/09/2024 21:56

450,000 kids were absent from school the last week of the summer term. You don't think that's a problem?

I'm not convinced they learn anything crucial in the last week of school. I think they mostly warch movies don't they?

Petitchat · 06/09/2024 16:51

noblegiraffe · 06/09/2024 16:30

They are called 'educational visits' because the kids are on them to learn stuff that supports the curriculum, not spend the day on a sun lounger.

I've never ever seen a kid "spend the day on a sun lounger"

They're usually running round, having fun, letting their hair down, making new friends, family time, etc.

All good stuff for childhood development

Peakpeakpeak · 06/09/2024 16:51

noblegiraffe · 06/09/2024 16:44

I suspect some exaggeration is going on tbh, but the correct response to a school completely pissing away a week of a child's education is to complain to the school.

Funny, some of us suspect the same of the claims about the extent and level of teaching being provided until the very last day.

Either way, you saying what you think should happen in schools doesn't address a point about what's actually happening now. Neither does you pronouncing on what's correct behaviour in that situation. Your claim only has any logic if a parent actually wants and thinks their child would benefit from more teaching at the end of the year, which of course doesn't follow. Seeing no value in end of term activities doesn't mean a person thinks children get benefit from lessons continuing to the end of an already long and tiring year. The one doesn't mean the other.

Peakpeakpeak · 06/09/2024 16:53

JKbowling · 06/09/2024 16:46

I need to catch up on the replies but thought I'd update about my conversation with my DD's school attendance officer today.

I had applied for holiday absence leave at the end of June for this week coming and she forgot to let me know it had been approved.

Long story short it has been and she doesn't agree with the new guidance on absence at all, she thinks it's draconian and actually said she hates her job at the minute. Poor woman. It must be really crap being in her position and tasked with enforcing something like this.

That's good news. Agree, it's really shit for schools to be expected to piss away already stretched resources on this damaging nonsense. Especially as they're so often the ones suffering consequences.

noblegiraffe · 06/09/2024 16:54

Petitchat · 06/09/2024 16:51

I've never ever seen a kid "spend the day on a sun lounger"

They're usually running round, having fun, letting their hair down, making new friends, family time, etc.

All good stuff for childhood development

But that's not what happens on a school trip, which is the point of that discussion.

Cynic17 · 06/09/2024 16:55

Children should be in school during termtime. The fines are way too low. Unfortunately, if you can't afford a particular holiday, then you have to go without, or have a cheaper one.

Differentstarts · 06/09/2024 16:55

noblegiraffe · 06/09/2024 16:30

They are called 'educational visits' because the kids are on them to learn stuff that supports the curriculum, not spend the day on a sun lounger.

What ski trips are educational because their with teachers but not with their own families. I think a good solution for everyone would be to make school days longer and school holidays shorter maybe to 4 weeks a year instead of 13 weeks so that if parents do decide to take their kids on holiday they have more time at school to catch up.

noblegiraffe · 06/09/2024 16:55

Your claim only has any logic if a parent actually wants and thinks their child would benefit from more teaching at the end of the year

So it's 'I'm quite happy for schools to do fuck all at the end of the year because it means I can take them out of school for a cheap holiday?'

noblegiraffe · 06/09/2024 16:56

Differentstarts · 06/09/2024 16:55

What ski trips are educational because their with teachers but not with their own families. I think a good solution for everyone would be to make school days longer and school holidays shorter maybe to 4 weeks a year instead of 13 weeks so that if parents do decide to take their kids on holiday they have more time at school to catch up.

Ski trips are generally not in term time. Lots go at February half term which is why there was such a problem with schools at the start of covid.

NeverDropYourMooncup · 06/09/2024 16:57

User6874356 · 06/09/2024 16:03

That’s correlation not cause. Studies show time off for holidays abroad and religious festivals have no impact on education. Probably because they tend to correlate with higher income groups

There is always a degree of limitation to such figures.

Yours rely entirely upon parents truthfully requesting holiday/time off, so automatically discounts those who lie as posters recommend to do almost daily on here. You're not differentiating between approved and unapproved absence in the case of holidays or the duration of each. It also doesn't include those who do not have KS2 data (statistically more likely for families of overseas origin).

Absences for parent reported illness include illness, undisclosed holidays, lateness where they've decided to call in sick, serious chronic illness and disability, parents covering for truancy, school refusal, waiting for EHCP, parental disengagement, domestic circumstances, lack of a place at hospital school and many, many other circumstances such as school transport failure and other issues (some of which have now been separated out into different codes for a greater depth of analysis). Illness has been used as a giant bucket for 'not coming to school - the easiest thing to say' on top of actually being ill and not feeling great/deciding it's not happening today despite the Lazarene recovery kids are famous for once it hits 9.30am and the TV goes on.

The FFT indications are an overall correlation between lower attendance = lower levels of progress in those where there is baseline data. FFT will not just base it on KS2 data, they can also now calculate it through CAT4 or other metrics, thus increasing the breadth of students this is calculated through.

As a general rule of thumb, absence of any kind results in lower progress and attainment compared to the mean, based upon thousands of students reaching data points every year. It's why hospital schools still exist (not enough, but they do still exist), because it's not the fault of a kid with Cystic Fibrosis that they are in hospital for at least 8 weeks a year for planned admissions, never mind emergency ones or a child with leukaemia isn't able to go to school; the additional education they receive there has a known, provable positive effect upon results compared to children who have not been able to access it.

Further splitting it into issues of access, transport, lack of EHCP place, train strikes, etc, etc helps to identify whether there are other correlations that could be approached differently - all the way to a local authority being able to say to a transport provider 'You are not keeping to the service levels agreed in the contract - you're not turning up for 30% of pickups, we are terminating this arrangement' and selecting one whose students have never been recorded as missing school due to the driver not turning up.

But it's all dependent upon the parents telling the truth about the one category it's easy to lie about vs specific circumstances that can be evidenced. Your claim is compromised by it not including those who lied as well as those whom for other reasons do not form part of the data set.

Petitchat · 06/09/2024 16:58

noblegiraffe · 06/09/2024 16:54

But that's not what happens on a school trip, which is the point of that discussion.

Oh, I thought we were discussing kids going on holiday during school term and that you were saying they shouldn't be spending the day on a sun lounger?

AloofFloof · 06/09/2024 16:59

Ime, gone are the days of doing no work in the last week in secondary school at least.

My child has normal lessons all week, as do other kids I know in other schools. In year 7-9, a couple of teachers would do a quiz based on their subject but most didn't, it was normal learning with homework given. In years 10 and 11, the teachers say that the timeframe for fitting in GCSE content is far too tight to waste lesson time.

Petitchat · 06/09/2024 17:01

noblegiraffe · 06/09/2024 16:55

Your claim only has any logic if a parent actually wants and thinks their child would benefit from more teaching at the end of the year

So it's 'I'm quite happy for schools to do fuck all at the end of the year because it means I can take them out of school for a cheap holiday?'

Do you usually interpret other posts for yourself?
Strange thing to do?

Differentstarts · 06/09/2024 17:02

AloofFloof · 06/09/2024 16:59

Ime, gone are the days of doing no work in the last week in secondary school at least.

My child has normal lessons all week, as do other kids I know in other schools. In year 7-9, a couple of teachers would do a quiz based on their subject but most didn't, it was normal learning with homework given. In years 10 and 11, the teachers say that the timeframe for fitting in GCSE content is far too tight to waste lesson time.

If This is the case maybe the better discussion to have is 13 weeks holiday a year necessary. If their was shorter school holidays their would be more flexibility for other things

noblegiraffe · 06/09/2024 17:03

Petitchat · 06/09/2024 16:58

Oh, I thought we were discussing kids going on holiday during school term and that you were saying they shouldn't be spending the day on a sun lounger?

Edited

You can click 'show quote history' if you are confused about the context.

Peakpeakpeak · 06/09/2024 17:04

noblegiraffe · 06/09/2024 16:55

Your claim only has any logic if a parent actually wants and thinks their child would benefit from more teaching at the end of the year

So it's 'I'm quite happy for schools to do fuck all at the end of the year because it means I can take them out of school for a cheap holiday?'

Using quotation marks for things you've pulled out of your arse is a bad habit.

There are parents who think the school year is too long and/or disagree with the distribution of holidays, who feel their DC aren't going to benefit from anything that's going on at the end of it. Not thinking a child needs to be in school for videos, sports day etc doesn't actually mean the parent also holds the belief that teaching during this time would be of benefit either. The one doesn't mean the other.

Now obviously we're not going to get a shorter school year than we have now, since school is essential childcare for so many parents. This still doesn't mean children are necessarily going to get value from schooling at the end of the year. I don't actually take mine out then, fwiw, we do our travel at different times.

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