University Fees

[JaneEyreLaughing]

Just reading that the universities have floated the idea of students paying £12,500. FFS.

My working class mum and dad went to university in 1978 and 1980 and they didn't pay any fees. They say only 10% of people went to university then and so it was more affordable for local authorities to fund-now so many young people go, that it simply isn't practical for the state to fund it.

This must have a detrimental effect on working class kids who just can't afford to go without burdening themselves with massive debt.

AIBU to say that we need to get back to this-just the top 10% and your fees paid, whether your dad is a duke or a dustbin man. Everyone is equal-you just need to get into the top 10%-your background doesn't matter-just your ability as reflected in your grades.

Even saying the top 20% will be funded would be better.

No nurses learned on the job or went to nursing college, there was no degree requirement originally for the job, in the old days. I do think the job has become more technical so requires a higher level of learning but there is no reason why nursing colleges shouldn't still exist.

A few years ago they scraped the funded nurse placements. Which was daft as a lot of people go into funding as a second career. Without the funded placements people can't aford to do this anymore. I know one or two people who just got in before the funding ended and they couldn't have done it without it.

@JaneEyreLaughing but the fees haven't rocketed they reflect the cost of delivering the course and don't have to be paid upfront. The fees are not a barrier to entry.

My degree and post graduate work is all in a science spelling/grammar has never been my strength or interest, but it doesn't effect the work I do so why should it matter. Spelling grammar mistakes in text never bother me as long as the meaning is clear. I can do complex maths/stats that someone with an English degree wouldn't understand.

I think an awful lot of kids are seriously looking into degree apprenticeships these days. The bank I work for has just decreased the number of places on the graduate scheme and increased the places for the degree apprenticeships. The degree is fully funded (so no debt), they get a job paying c.£35k a year, guaranteed employment at the end of it and 2 years work experience, whilst their peers are still at Uni, racking up debt with no guaranteed grad role at the end of it. If you want to be a vet/doctor/dentist etc it clearly won't work - but a much better option if you want to work in a bank/accountant etc.

This must be satire!

Into what jobs?

You want to prevent young people accessing education? Why? How does it improve their lives for you to take the opportunity to access education away from them?

I would only encourage my kids to do an honours degree if it was very likely to lead to a profession….otherwise it’s a waste of their money and mine …… I wouldn’t have paid to my own honours degree or MSc ….but when you work in the NHS it’s often paid for

They may be bright but the wealthy can pay for extra tutoring and extracurriculars to differentiate their kids from the rest so that they are in the at least top 10%. So this strategy won’t achieve anything

You don't understand the system.

The international students pay higher fees and they are not taking any places from UK students.

International students pay higher fees ... that subsidise domestic students and make them viable. Feel free to prioritise British kids if you're willing for UK taxpayers to pay much much more. You'll see the effects of the Conservative government's decision to prioritise being seen to reduce immigration by hobbling one of the UK's successful export sectors as overseas student numbers fall and universities react by closing courses and seek to increase domestic fees...

I think this 50% figure has always been a stretch and to many. Not all students are capable of this. I don't think 50% are capable.

We did make 50% in 2017 apparently. But last year it was 35% which I think is a much more realistic figure. I mean looking at the course available in cleaning this year there was a lot of business and media degree courses with spaces and low entry requirements. I certainly wouldn't be encouraging a student to do a degree and endnup with a large debt. Which while theatrically is a student tax, does end up effecting your ability to obtain a mortgage.

Am unsure there's be general approval for the approach in the OP where taxpayers subsidise the children of the wealthy and give them 'free' tertiary education.

Wouldn't this result in the same 'elite' students that take most grammar spaces- read children whose parents can pay for tutoring to edge them into the top 10%?

It is time to stop sending the intellectually challenged to university, it is a waste of money and it is only done to keep the unemployment figures down. Simply change the pass levels to A: 95% and above, B: 85% and above, C:75% and above. Anything less and you don't qualify, no matter what excuses your parents and teachers come up with. So so simple.

Grammar and punctuation aren’t taught at uni. The mistakes you describe are taught at primary school. A person may be fantastic at nursing, maths or engineering but struggle with these areas, and I imagine they may put slightly more effort in to proof reading university assignments than posts on a forum.

@JaneEyreLaughing

My son is about to start his second year at university. He went on a contextual offer as he is did not have enough ucas points for his course.
So he is far from being your 'educational elite'
But let me tell you about him.
He was non verbal until he was 5 after he had spent a year in foster care. I adopted him age 8. He was in special school, not even working at national curriculum level.
If you had asked me then I would have doubted whether he would do GCSEs.
Within a year he was attending mainstream primary part time, full time for year 6. He went to mainstream secondary. Got very average GCSEs, not helped by Covid. Did Btec at college, did well enough.
He has worked bloody hard and overcome more than you will ever know.
He will probably always be a bit 'behind' , he will never set the world alight, he won't have a stellar career. But he holds his own and will do well enough.

I am incredibly proud of him. It was his dream to go to university. He probably deserves that place more than straight A students.
There are many young people like him. Why should they be denied opportunities

Amen to that. Your son sounds brilliant and I hope he's enjoying his degree and that it is enriching his life.

And all praise to your DS and I’m all for whatever makes you happy….lbut will his degree help him to secure a graduate type or a professional job? …..the point I’m trying to make is that if he ends up in a MW job then he could have spent the last 3 years earning money……i personally wouldn’t have encouraged my child to do this…..I have a son a bit like this…..hes a joiner now…i didn’t encourage him to go to uni…..it wouldn’t bother me that people will never pay the fees and loans back on a MW job.,,,,but it would bother a lot of people who pay tax….but I may have read this all wrong and your DS will be on track to earn well….good luck to him in whatever he does

You do realise that the odds were stacked against your parents getting to university in the 1980s because they were working class? Higher education took big steps to being democratised in the late 1990s when lots of polytechnics became universities and more spaces became available, but even now 30 years on the working class is still under-represented in Higher Education. That's not because working class children are not as smart or as educationally able as middle class children, but because they don't have the same support and opportunities - like parents with a positive attitude towards higher education who understand how to support access, families who are more likely to visit museums and theatres and own a wide selection of books, children who are more likely to be sent to fee paying schools or receive additional tuition...

@Kitkat1523

But he won't end up in a minimum wage job. And his poor start to life has left him with motor skills issues. He can barely chop an onion - he is not cut out for manual work, would probably be quite lethal with a set of joiners tools.
Going to university is his route out of minimum wage jobs. At each stage of his education he has caught up a little bit more. He has astonished social workers who wrote him off at 5.
Why should he not have that chance? I can tell you he probably appreciates it more than those young people for whom uni is an assumption.
He will probably be like me. I was the first person in my very working class family to go to university.
I had a perfectly decent career in the civil service. Far from being a high earner, earned above the average. Again not a stellar career. But I did well enough. I own my home and have never been out of work.
If I hadn't gone to university I would probably have worked in kwiksave or the chicken factory, married to some idiot at 18 with a bunch of kids by 25, because that's what girls where I came from did, including my own mother.

Its called social mobility.

This idea has just been published in the Guardian...
The person in the article suggesting a rise in fees to £12.5k is not expecting students/graduates to pay the extra, but rather the government, so not as adverse for the student/graduate as some have depicted.

English universities need tuition fees of £12,500 to break even, analysis finds | University funding | The Guardian

so That’s fine if he’s going to end up with a decent wage …..then it will have been worth it

@HippyKayYay

Thank you. Yes he is an absolute star.
He has a smile that really does light up the room and is a right old charmer.

It's been the absolute privilege of my life to see how he has grown into the young man he is.
He was fortunate enough to have some incredible teachers who believed in him, encouraged him and went that extra mile to get him where he is.

He is having a great time, working hard and enjoying life. And he takes none of it for granted

@Kitkat1523

I don't know why you think he might not end up with a decent wage

Well I don’t know one way or the other cos I don’t know what he’s studying ….but you’ve put me right….so all good eh 🙄

Have you looked at the proportion of working class students at universities in the 1980s?