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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

University Fees

123 replies

JaneEyreLaughing · 05/09/2024 15:12

Just reading that the universities have floated the idea of students paying £12,500. FFS.

My working class mum and dad went to university in 1978 and 1980 and they didn't pay any fees. They say only 10% of people went to university then and so it was more affordable for local authorities to fund-now so many young people go, that it simply isn't practical for the state to fund it.

This must have a detrimental effect on working class kids who just can't afford to go without burdening themselves with massive debt.

AIBU to say that we need to get back to this-just the top 10% and your fees paid, whether your dad is a duke or a dustbin man. Everyone is equal-you just need to get into the top 10%-your background doesn't matter-just your ability as reflected in your grades.

Even saying the top 20% will be funded would be better.

OP posts:
MumApril1990 · 05/09/2024 15:46

Don’t blame Universities. The Governemnt sets the fees. Your parents went free because the government funded Uni’s then. Unis’s are now struggling massively to stay afloat because they don’t get the funding, and they can’t raise fees.

NinjaPaws · 05/09/2024 15:49

JaneEyreLaughing
"AIBU to say that we need to get back to this-just the top 10% and your fees paid, whether your dad is a duke or a dustbin man. Everyone is equal-you just need to get into the top 10%-your background doesn't matter-just your ability as reflected in your grades."

I also went to Uni in the 1980's. The grants were means tested and your parent's income and how many siblings you had/whether they were also at Uni was taken into account. If your parents knew a Duke's child getting a grant then the Duke had a small income. We still need people who are qualified (I am keen for my GP to have attended medical training) and we do need to have a discussion about how to fund it. But I certainly do not want the only people attending Uni to be from the higher earning parents. I was the first from my family to go to Uni. I want others (never mind their parental income) to have the same opportunities. Children from lower earning backgrounds consistently do worse at school as ViciousCurrentBun says "children from better off families for a myriad of reason overtake their peers". And No - nurses were not dumb in the past - in the 1980's nurses had more training on the job and day release to college to learn for some (State Enrolled and State Registered nurses). I also think you will find that today's nurses are called upon to do much more prescribing/diagnosing than the nurses of yesteryear.

sdds15 · 05/09/2024 15:49

isn't baffling how there is no student loan industry in Europe and families pay less than €1000 a year in tuition fees? My cousin is sending 2 girls through med school on a good but not top level wage, no debts envolved.

Even more baffling is that no one thinks about trying to figure out how other countiries are coping and maybe learn something from them?

Meditationgame · 05/09/2024 15:50

What are universities spending the money on? Looking at the job vacancies for my local university it's not on staff salaries.

RancidOldHag · 05/09/2024 15:53

The Duke's child would have got a grant up to the mid 80s. Everyone did, but on a sliding scale based on household income. Even the richest of richy rich duke's DC would have received minimum grant.

Minimum grant was abolished in 1986.

JaneEyreLaughing · 05/09/2024 15:56

@NinjaPaws Yes, grants means tested but fees paid for everyone. It is easier to pay all the fees of those going if there aren't so many going.

Why do we need 50% to go, Better that less go and fees are paid by the state or at least reduced.

OP posts:
JaneEyreLaughing · 05/09/2024 16:03

Of course, I know many posters will have a vested interest in saying that all sorts of jobs need degrees now-if you are in one of those jobs then it would be silly to say otherwise.

But taking self-interest out of it, either because you're in that type of job or because you rely on a job provided by some sort of uni, the fewer that go the better. Not every job need a degree, not everyone leaving uni is highly educated and if only the most able go, then the state will be able to contribute more towards fees.

50%, or thereabouts, going to university is nonsense. They're supposed to be for the above average intelligent person or have I got that wrong-are they now no more special than going to junior school.

If educational ability is no longer the top requirement, then fair enough let everyone go and let the fees become even more sky high,

OP posts:
HippyKayYay · 05/09/2024 16:04

Meditationgame · 05/09/2024 15:50

What are universities spending the money on? Looking at the job vacancies for my local university it's not on staff salaries.

Shiny buildings to attract overseas students (who prop up the finances as home fees don’t cover their own bills). Fucking senior/middle managers. Stupid corporate-style initiatives (eg ‘curriculum reviews’) initiated by said managers who don’t see them through but move onto another job elsewhere having been able to ‘demonstrate their ability to effect change’. Fucking stupid REF and other top-down bullshit stuff.

I’ve just left my job as an academic after nearly 20 years in HE. The system is screwed and it became increasingly frustrating/ futile. I hate the marketisation of HE in the UK. And I’ve worked in the US system too.

HippyKayYay · 05/09/2024 16:06

JaneEyreLaughing · 05/09/2024 16:03

Of course, I know many posters will have a vested interest in saying that all sorts of jobs need degrees now-if you are in one of those jobs then it would be silly to say otherwise.

But taking self-interest out of it, either because you're in that type of job or because you rely on a job provided by some sort of uni, the fewer that go the better. Not every job need a degree, not everyone leaving uni is highly educated and if only the most able go, then the state will be able to contribute more towards fees.

50%, or thereabouts, going to university is nonsense. They're supposed to be for the above average intelligent person or have I got that wrong-are they now no more special than going to junior school.

If educational ability is no longer the top requirement, then fair enough let everyone go and let the fees become even more sky high,

Edited

But why shouldn’t everyone go to university if they wish to? We don’t cut off education at 16 or 12 anymore. Why should it be the preserve of the wealthy or already privileged? Why shouldn’t someone who wants to be a plumber or whatever also be able to go to university if they want to??

Meditationgame · 05/09/2024 16:08

HippyKayYay · 05/09/2024 16:04

Shiny buildings to attract overseas students (who prop up the finances as home fees don’t cover their own bills). Fucking senior/middle managers. Stupid corporate-style initiatives (eg ‘curriculum reviews’) initiated by said managers who don’t see them through but move onto another job elsewhere having been able to ‘demonstrate their ability to effect change’. Fucking stupid REF and other top-down bullshit stuff.

I’ve just left my job as an academic after nearly 20 years in HE. The system is screwed and it became increasingly frustrating/ futile. I hate the marketisation of HE in the UK. And I’ve worked in the US system too.

So pointless fluff then? And why are we giving so many spaces to students who then don't join our workforce? Especially on highly competitive courses like healthcare or engineering? I know someone on a STEM course who says the majority of people in the lectures are Chinese. This is a Russell group university Why aren't we prioritising spaces for British kids and our own workforces? Out of the 150 or so universities in the country surely we can close around 60 or 70 of them?

Kitkat1523 · 05/09/2024 16:09

JaneEyreLaughing · 05/09/2024 16:03

Of course, I know many posters will have a vested interest in saying that all sorts of jobs need degrees now-if you are in one of those jobs then it would be silly to say otherwise.

But taking self-interest out of it, either because you're in that type of job or because you rely on a job provided by some sort of uni, the fewer that go the better. Not every job need a degree, not everyone leaving uni is highly educated and if only the most able go, then the state will be able to contribute more towards fees.

50%, or thereabouts, going to university is nonsense. They're supposed to be for the above average intelligent person or have I got that wrong-are they now no more special than going to junior school.

If educational ability is no longer the top requirement, then fair enough let everyone go and let the fees become even more sky high,

Edited

You see I don’t agree that it should be 10% ….but I do think that that you could could get rid of a lot of options….maybe just the professions….ie ones that lead to admittance onto a professional register and then the basic subjects like maths and English…..I would be fine with that

Fluufer · 05/09/2024 16:09

I'd rather funded places for shortage industries, and more vocational routes and apprenticeships opened up. I didn't go to uni, DH had a scholarship abroad, so literally no skin in the game, but I think education is valuable beyond employability/potential tax revenue and is good for social mobility. If fewer people attend uni again, it will mostly be the most privileged, like it used to be.

Kitkat1523 · 05/09/2024 16:11

HippyKayYay · 05/09/2024 16:06

But why shouldn’t everyone go to university if they wish to? We don’t cut off education at 16 or 12 anymore. Why should it be the preserve of the wealthy or already privileged? Why shouldn’t someone who wants to be a plumber or whatever also be able to go to university if they want to??

What’s the point of going to uni if you wanna be a plumber? All that debt for fuck all? …..my uncles a plumber …..he has his own business now….he’s coining it in

modgepodge · 05/09/2024 16:14

Meditationgame · 05/09/2024 16:08

So pointless fluff then? And why are we giving so many spaces to students who then don't join our workforce? Especially on highly competitive courses like healthcare or engineering? I know someone on a STEM course who says the majority of people in the lectures are Chinese. This is a Russell group university Why aren't we prioritising spaces for British kids and our own workforces? Out of the 150 or so universities in the country surely we can close around 60 or 70 of them?

English students can’t be charged more than the approx £9k fees and I believe unis are capped on how many of these they can accept. Foreign students can be charged more and they can have as many as they like. Foreign students’ fees are propping the system up!

HippyKayYay · 05/09/2024 16:15

There is a value to being educated beyond stuff to do with employability/ vocations. The last govt (and often more right wing govts typically) don’t want an educated population. They want proles to do the grunt jobs and pay taxes and die early so they don’t clog up the social care system.

Education opens your horizons. Teaches you how to question things in an informed and rounded (ie not personally opinionated) way. Helps you understand the complex dynamics of society. Would help you understand for eg that education isn’t 100% transactional and that there are nuances to this debate we’re having right now. Helps you learn how to question the way the country is run, without resorting to rioting or just disengaging completely. Etc etc etc.

Flatulence · 05/09/2024 16:17

I went to university at the tail end of the 90s/early 2000s and was among the first few cohorts subject to tuition fees. Neither of my parents attended university, both leaving school at 16. I was very against tuition fees at the time, but now my grasp of social mobility and the economy is such that I have a somewhat different view.

There's plenty of studies that show that when Scotland introduced free tuition for Scottish students at Scottish unis it actually reduced social mobility. The reason being that it made getting into uni harder (especially the most prestigious ones), as universities sought to reduce the spaces available for 'home' students by recruiting more international students.

Similar is happening in universities in England and Wales too because they aren't getting enough revenue from the capped 9k fees, just not on the scale of Scotland.

Universities have to be funded somehow. At present, tuition fees (which aren't paid in advance, only once one has graduated/left and is earning over a certain amount) are effectively a graduate tax.

When there's finite public funds, its seems reasonable to expect adults to pay for something from which they benefit. Whether the level of fees is currently too high or too low, I don't know. But I do know that increasing social mobility relies much more on funding early years better, rather than post-18 education.

It's also reasonable to expect a significant contribution from graduates when there are now so many other routes to getting a degree and/or into many professions than even 20yrs ago. Degree apprenticeships are fantastic and it's possible to even become a doctor by this route. That was never an option when I was 18 and I think it's fantastic that there's so much more choice available now - with high tuition fees just one of those choices.

I'd absolutely hate to go back to a world where there was an arbitrary cap of 10 or 20pc of young people going to university and everyone else was expected to pick up the tab. That would be catastrophic for social mobility. It's far fairer to ask those who benefit most by virtue of a higher income to pay a bit more tax.

And finally, tuition fees have been knocking around for nearly 30yrs now. They've been over 9k a year for over a decade. There's not much sign of young people's desire to attend university drastically falling. Quite the opposite, in fact: more young people from working class backgrounds are attending the most prestigious universities than ever before - despite the many other routes to professions/a degree available.

So no. It's right to ensure young people have a real choice about what they do post 18, regardless of what career they're interested in. But if they do wish to pursue a traditional degree - when they've known pretty much their entire lives that it's going to be £££ - then I think it's fair that they pay an extra few quid (or few hundred quid, depending on salary) in tax each month when they graduate.

Kitkat1523 · 05/09/2024 16:17

Fluufer · 05/09/2024 16:09

I'd rather funded places for shortage industries, and more vocational routes and apprenticeships opened up. I didn't go to uni, DH had a scholarship abroad, so literally no skin in the game, but I think education is valuable beyond employability/potential tax revenue and is good for social mobility. If fewer people attend uni again, it will mostly be the most privileged, like it used to be.

You can take an apprenticeship route to becoming a nurse these days….but it’s still a level 6 course and you end up with an honours degree ….the nhs trust pay the fees….and the trainee gets a wage

HippyKayYay · 05/09/2024 16:17

Kitkat1523 · 05/09/2024 16:11

What’s the point of going to uni if you wanna be a plumber? All that debt for fuck all? …..my uncles a plumber …..he has his own business now….he’s coining it in

In the current system there is little point. But wouldn’t it be great to have a system where you could study just for the sake of it if you wanted to. Because it enriches your life. Because you’re interested in the subject? Not because it’s a transactional thing of ‘if I go to university for 3 years I will earn more money’.

Kitkat1523 · 05/09/2024 16:18

HippyKayYay · 05/09/2024 16:17

In the current system there is little point. But wouldn’t it be great to have a system where you could study just for the sake of it if you wanted to. Because it enriches your life. Because you’re interested in the subject? Not because it’s a transactional thing of ‘if I go to university for 3 years I will earn more money’.

No I don’t think that would be great at all🙄
feckin pointless

maddiemookins16mum · 05/09/2024 16:18

We need to stop with the whole 'everyone should go to Uni'. They shouldn't. Some go cos their pals are going! Get some of these young people in the workplace earlier, not every decent job needs an (often pointless) degree.

HippyKayYay · 05/09/2024 16:21

Kitkat1523 · 05/09/2024 16:18

No I don’t think that would be great at all🙄
feckin pointless

So you don’t think there’s any value in being educated for its own sake? Or in ‘improving your mind’? What is the purpose of education, more broadly, for you? Or do you not value education at all?

nearlylovemyusername · 05/09/2024 16:25

sdds15 · 05/09/2024 15:49

isn't baffling how there is no student loan industry in Europe and families pay less than €1000 a year in tuition fees? My cousin is sending 2 girls through med school on a good but not top level wage, no debts envolved.

Even more baffling is that no one thinks about trying to figure out how other countiries are coping and maybe learn something from them?

There is much smaller proportion of school leavers go to Unis and hence those who do are supported by state

sleepyscientist · 05/09/2024 16:28

JaneEyreLaughing · 05/09/2024 15:33

Were nurses dumb in the past then?

Nursing roles were different back then. Just look at prehospital care over the last 20 years to see how far medicine has come.

Why are you opposed to working class kids getting a loan the same as middle class kids? Uni isn't just about the subject it about learning to think and write in a different way.

It's now at the point it is basically a graduate tax anyway.

mitogoshi · 05/09/2024 16:33

The problem is that as soon as you reduce the fees, someone else, the dc who didn't go to university for instance are paying for those who do. Fees are only payable once you are earning but they need to do something about the interest rate!

JaneEyreLaughing · 05/09/2024 16:37

I don't know about the value of the education that is given.
Education is great and that's why I think fees should be abolished but I common sense tells me that is something that can't happen with 50% of people going.
I also question the worth of some of the education provided. Many many times, I read a post from a poster-about many and varied topics-that drop in the fact that they have a degree or even a M.A. and yet their posts are full of the most basic errors- things like 'off of,' 'there pencils' apostrophes all over the place.
What value was their degree if they make basic errors like that?

Just because many more people go to university does not mean that we are a better educated country.

I thought university was meant to be elitist by its very nature but it appears that I'm behind the times-everyone should go, regardless of ability and the fees should rocket.
Crazy

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