"Stop being a Karen"

[ValsCupcakes]

I heard this on Tuesday from a young, no more than 20, guy saying it to his girlfriend in the street in town.

Is this still going on? I'm out this afternoon at my friend's house. She is called Karen and is sick of it. I heard a woman phone into the radio too the other week saying her husband's satnav was an annoying female voice so he called it Karen.

Huh? Why do women have to stick up for you? Would you think that about a man?

It's an American term and the majority here are in the UK, so I very much doubt people are being deliberately obtuse.

Women on the thread have repeatedly said that they find the term demeaning and offensive as it's being used as a way of shutting them down. It can easily be exchanged with the word bitch, with no difference in implication.

You'll find that many women are old hat at dealing with mysogyny. New term different day. Posters are arguing that the reason women are being called Karens is because they are. Insert the word bitch and you'll understand the objections.

So if you’re working on the premise of every woman for herself, why are you expecting BAME women to step in when white women are being called Karen and say that’s wrong?

Also, BAME women experience sexism too - what would you do if someone called your mother a Karen for complaining about something? Does it then cross into misogynistic territory for you?

I’m not? Where did I say that? I asked you if you thought a white teenager male called a white older woman a Karen for complaining, was in your view, misogynistic?

I know we're moving away from the Karen label topic. But I would recommend you read some literature on white feminism and how non white people interact with it. The impact of white feminism, and talking back to it, is a huge, well developed area in academic theory and general thinking, but what you are saying dismisses it altogether.

This is a useful article:
chacruna.net/how-white-feminists-oppress-black-women-when-feminism-functions-as-white-supremacy/

I am not saying this condescendingly or as an attack of some kind- it is a thought provoking topic.

I can’t see where you asked me that, but yes, that’s misogynistic.

It feels like this is supposed to be funny, but you’re just proving the point of those of us who don’t like the term. In your eyes, a “Karen” is someone who’s wealthy and a bit oblivious (hardly a hanging offence), but the male equivalent is a random male name that isn’t in common usage, PLUS he has to do more and worse to receive the insult.

So… women get punished more for doing less. Cool. Hilarious stuff, do carry on.

I have done read it around this topic, and I wouldn’t dismiss it at all - I’m aware it’s a huge issue.

But I do question the reductiveness of your argument in your last post.

Then you just don’t get it Lizzie and you will never understand until you experience it.

Having to move differently around a white woman in M&S because there’s a chance she’s one of the minority of racists who will take exception to your existence. I hate that I have to modify my behaviour to the extent of moving out of the entire aisle.

No one's suggesting you have to stick up for white women. But you seem to be saying you actually agree that it's ok.

That what’s ok?

Do you not find that with men though, too?

Genuine question - in your experience are white women more racist than white men?

I fail to understand why people are bothered and up in arms specifically about racist white women being called a Karen. I'm not talking about the complainers, or the asserters. The racist white women.

Why does it bother you what a racist woman is called? You should be more bothered about the racism, than what the women being racist is being called.

If you're angry that the Karen movement has moved to the U.K. with different meanings, be angry at the racist middle aged white women who are literally putting black peoples lives in danger who are the real alleged reason as to why the Karen movement started.

The micro racism on this site gets worse and worse every day.

I find men are more obvious, more outspoken, more upfront, will for example barge through a door or make a nasty comment, women are more passive aggressive, its the looks and the whispering and yes I've had the tears for correcting someone who obviously thought I was beneath her despite being her team leader. In a lot of ways the men are easier to deal with. However that isn't what this thread is about its about the way Karen is now used to silence women over a certain age in a misogynistic manner.

I have had racist incidents from men yes, but much fewer than women, men seem to see BAME women as ‘exotic’ women to hit on.

Shall I tell you why...

It's because people like you don't have a thought in your head for anyone actually called Karen.

No one's name is bitch or cunt or dickhead or whatever your choice of insult is. REAL LIFE Karen's exist and Karen's are sick & fucking tired of being stereotyped as moany old women because people like you use a lazy arsed stereotype instead of finding a more interesting description.

It's fucking offensive and bullying behaviour. You should be ashamed.

Totally get what you mean - I always get asked where am I from by men (when they’re trying to hit on me 🙄) me ‘wales’ him ‘no I mean where are you really from’ 🙄

It bothers me (as a mixed race woman) that my white, older mother was called a ‘Karen’ by a white teenage boy - because she asked him to stop swearing on a train in earshot of my (mixed race!) child.

This teenage boy has no clue that the word originated in the US and meant racist white woman - he was using it as a socially accepted way to call my mum a bitch because she stood up for herself.

Exactly! I get that too, especially when younger.

I don't think I am being reductive, though.

But beyond all this, Karen is a much broader term than this in the UK - it’s used whenever a woman, often although not exclusively an older woman, asserts herself, regardless of whether she is being unreasonable or not. This is not OK.

I don't disagree with this in the slightest. You will not find any evidence of me disagreeing with this in any of my posts.

The only thing I sought to do was bring back the context and history of this term, as well as the way it continues to be used in racial minority communities, which is an important context. When women say "it is just a replacement for the word bitch"- that may be how they personally have experienced the word. But it completely erases the fact that actually the word Karen was used to describe a particular type of racism, racism which should be acknowledged and addressed amongst white women.

My posts sought to bring that context back into the discussion because it is in my opinion a very important element.

It's not the fact that this behaviour exists that's being challenged, it's the lazy labelling of the behaviour with a name held by millions of women most of whom don't behave like that.

I completely defer to others on this. I obviously don't experience this type of prejudice. Not in any way denying it exists.

While I may not object to racist white women being called "Karen" I would object to me being called it since IF we are saying its only applied to racists then isn't that calling me racist?
And how would me politely asking for something or expressing that I was not happy with a service I recieved be in any way racist?
Perhaps the "first Karens" were racist, there is plenty of footage online to support that, although I am pretty sure a lot of it is fake BUT the term is now used to mean any middle aged woman who dares to have an opinion on something, however calmly and politely its expressed

(edited by MNHQ)
My partner is Cypriot (white but very tanned skin and a dark beard) got called a ‘p**i’ in a pub last year, I mean honestly I despair at the intelligence of these racists