"Stop being a Karen"

[ValsCupcakes]

I heard this on Tuesday from a young, no more than 20, guy saying it to his girlfriend in the street in town.

Is this still going on? I'm out this afternoon at my friend's house. She is called Karen and is sick of it. I heard a woman phone into the radio too the other week saying her husband's satnav was an annoying female voice so he called it Karen.

False. Plenty use it in the UK to label a white woman who uses her white privilige to cause harm to black men/boys/women/girls.

To claim that 'noone uses it to mean racism' in the UK is astoundingly ignorant. Unsurprisingly.

That’s just completely untrue though isn’t it - ‘plenty’ of people don’t use it in that way

Ageism exists too, but you couldn't possibly be guilty of that...

Us over 60s are quite capable of managing apps, thank you🙄

What a weird comment. Do you think there are not enough black or BAME people in the UK to count as plenty?

I have been asked this a few times in the past, it is a fair question if asked with sincere and genuine intent.
I can not be equally aghast as I simply don't see it that way.
What I do see, almost without exception, and struggle to get past is the behaviour of the women that get labelled with the term. In short, I guess, I to think they are 'Karens'.

@MNHQ I am NOT calling anyone anything. I am responding to a genuine question in good faith.

I’m mixed race - I’ve never heard any one use it as it was originally intended. Are you suggesting that all BAME in the UK use Karen as the ‘US’ definition?

I’ve heard it aimed at my white mother though

I think your lived experience, here in the UK, is very different to my, my family, and my friends lives experiences.

So the women telling you here, that they're called a Karen on a regular basis on social media and IRL, are all racists and being called out by BAME people?

I'm also wondering why all these demeaning names are women's: Karen, Becky, Felicia, Patty. There isn't a male equivalent yet we all know men can equally be racist.

I have been asked this a few times in the past, it is a fair question if asked with sincere and genuine intent.
I can not be equally aghast as I simply don't see it that way.
What I do see, almost without exception, and struggle to get past is the behaviour of the women that get labelled with the term. In short, I guess, I to think they are 'Karens'.

@MNHQ I am NOT calling anyone anything. I am responding to a genuine question in good faith.

I think you will find that its you who are stereotyping there.

What are you talking about 🤣 example - young WHITE teenager calls older WHITE woman a Karen for asking him to stop smoking in a non-smoking area - can you explain to us why this is A) not misogynistic and ageist and B) how this fits in with your definition of the word?

I find if you respond to someone who says "You're such a Karen!" with "Well, I wouldn't need to be a Karen if you weren't such a Richard....sorry Dick!" it often pulls them up on their behaviour and contributions to the situation.

Have you tried something like that yet?

This. I hate seeing it on here, too. What's wrong with people?

I've been reading though this but can't work out if I missed @Eldrick47s responding to the accusations that they're a man lecturing women on what they can and can't be upset about.

I'm also really confused how the US is being held up as the most racist country ever (it doesn't seem to be an argument that they are currently in this position) without mention of South Africa (I agree with comments on the European colonial powers (including Britain) and Nazi Germany as well but South Africa seems to be a glaring omission in the discussion).

I personally have no objection to the word Karen being used to describe a racist white woman. I suspect if I was called Karen I wouldn't love it, but my name can sometimes be used to describe a certain type of annoying person and it is what it is. I agree there white women have a unique brand of racism, but I'd further separate that because I don't think it's the same across all white women - in that the type of white woman racism we're talking about here is a US white woman thing (and Afrikaans white woman!). There is white woman racism in the UK, but to me it's different BUT I'm a white woman and completely accept I may be missing something completely.

I don't think that the fact that Karen originated as a term used to describe a racist white woman, should mean women can't object to it being used to as an alternative to 'bitch' in other circumstances. That's a straw man argument. And yes of course this is not the world's biggest problem, but this is an internet forum where people have 1000s of posts discussing whether penguin bollards are a good solution to a parking dispute.

I remember seeing a friend's son say 'sure Karen' to her when she was telling him off about something - there is absolutely no doubt Karen as most commonly used in the world I live in is misogynistic. In real life, I can't think of a time I've heard Karen used to describe a racist white woman.

The interesting thing is the world I live in is majority non-white but there are very few black people in the demographic and those who are are not from the US/UK. I'm wondering whether some of the argument in this thread is because the term is actually used differently in different communities? Maybe in some parts of the UK its original meaning is still being maintained? I can see some previous posters have said this and wanted to call it out.

No one said that all women being called this are racist etc.

Someone said that plenty of people in the UK use the term in this context. That’s not to say that it isn’t also used in the way you’re describing.

Totally agree.

@robincash Except with the feeling that that type of white woman is less apparent here. They are very much around and quite the force.

I’m mixed race, my mother is white - I haven’t really experienced any racism from white women? I’ve actually had more racist/sexist remarks from white men - normally making comments about my body, hair etc

And it’s interesting to me that there is no specific slang word for racist white men, why is this?

Please explain how you get to the first question from me explaining- and I quote from my own post here-

"Do you really have no understanding as to why women called Karen might object to their name being used as a gendered insult?

Of course I do, I'm not a moron. I'm simply stating the history and ongoing use of the term as it arose, because lots in this thread are doing their very best to pretend that the very real problem it arose in response to, never existed, and the use of the term 'Karen' was simply misogyny from the start."

To be candid, I often wonder how I’m going to teach my son to navigate the danger for him of getting into any kind of confrontation with a white woman/girl.

I’ll be open to him dating anyone, but society’s emotive response to a particular type of white woman is dangerous for some of us.

And I say certain type because if you’re a certain type of poor (like those poor girls in Rochdale) then you may as well be black.

However, if a posh blonde woman ever says she feels scared or upset by the actions of my son…that is not a place I want him to be in.

This kind of racism is not exclusively female - white men also cite black women as aggressive in the work place with no grounds, white men also use the excuse to call the police on black men even when there is no threat.

But even if it were, it is still sexist to have a specific term for a female form of racism when you don’t have an equivalent term for men. (Does it apply to men? - being a good test if ever you are wondering if something is sexist or not.)

Racism should be called out, if it is mostly being perpetrated by a particular group that should be pointed out - you can acknowledge something exists without using a term that is sexist.

But beyond all this, Karen is a much broader term than this in the UK - it’s used whenever a woman, often although not exclusively an older woman, asserts herself, regardless of whether she is being unreasonable or not. This is not OK.

I don’t know any black or mixed race woman (or men) who’d use the term Karen. I also think that those women who feel disconnected from white middle class feminism (because class as well as race is an issue here) do so for a multitude of reasons, including the exclusion of women who are not in professional jobs.

It is not true to say that intersectional feminism cannot exist without people having differences of opinion.

Aren’t you equally worried about racist men though? My brother has a white girlfriend and has never experienced any issues with white women accusing him of anything BUT he was beaten up by a group of white teenagers when he was younger.

Given no white woman has ever stuck up for me when on the receiving end of racism from a white women, I don’t really see it as BAME women’s job to worry about what white teenage girls are saying to white women.

Really sorry to hear that about your brother.

And of course I am. But it’s a different fear. I think the male racism (violence) is what everyone assumes racism to be so it doesn’t have separate descriptions or terms but the female one is not as obvious so needs different ways to identify it.