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Lucy Letby case - Rob Rinder and David Davies

1000 replies

LimeFawn · 05/09/2024 07:52

Going back to thread in summer about Lucy Letby case needing criminal case review- surely that has to happen now?

In the past couple of days, I have seen David Davis MP talking about this on Good morning - apparently senior neonatal doctors contacted him directly;

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5HcW71BSGSM

Rob Rinder who is an expert in criminal law has also raised concerns- pic included below.

And article in guardian about her notes which was used a lot in this mumsnet thread as proof of guilt:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5115849-to-think-the-lucy-letby-case-needs-a-judicial-review

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/article/2024/sep/03/i-am-evil-i-did-this-lucy-letbys-so-called-confessions-were-written-on-advice-of-counsellors

Surely there is enough new information coming to light to justify a criminal case review - her conviction really doesn’t seem safe at all?

Lucy Letby case - Rob Rinder and David Davies
OP posts:
Thread gallery
25
MistressoftheDarkSide · 07/09/2024 07:51

SusiSlippers · 07/09/2024 01:45

She has been found guilty by two juries. Do we have to go through another trial or two or three or however many it takes for the defendant to be found not guilty for every case?

Or does this waste of time and extravagant waste public money only apply to killer nurses?

Let's just examine this train of thought shall we?

Imagine for one minute you are innocent despite the pronouncements of whichever part of the legal system you're caught up in. You've had to play a game for years, learning "rules" that seem illogical and non-sensical. By which I mean your legal experts, who are not also medical experts and dependent on outsourcing to a small number of specialists, have advised you to not say or do any number of things you feel are relevant because in the past certain things have seemed to negatively impact the outcome of similar cases - for example, you find an expert who has worked on a number of similar cases to your own and due to their knowledge and expertise have pretty robust alternative explanations to that of the prosecution. However, despite their qualifications and expertise they are considered a maverick or outlier because they go against entrenched dogma that has been repeated so often in courts, and won many prosecutions, so asking the court for permission to use them is off the table because it would prejudice the case against you by simply uttering their name in legal circles. That's one part of the game. Truth is actually sacrificed early on to protocol.

The fear is that guilty people will get off if the alternative view gains traction. The logic is that there are far more guilty people than innocent, so if a few innocents slip through the net when it comes to public safety and particularly in cases regarding children, those outlying innocents are worthy collateral damage, and should martyr themselves for the greater good.

There are a few tactics employed to bring a recalcitrant and apparently guilty but innocent in their own mind / knowledge defendents to heal.

One is to keep hammering away at them to respect the system, and the process, and the experts, because you are nothing in comparison. Challenging it is supremely arrogant, because while miscarriages of justice do happen, it's very rare. Which up until you're on the receiving end, you have previously believed (naively). You have been up to this point, generally law abiding, have had respect for the system and believed that telling the truth is your saving grace. So you tell your truth, and everyone opposing you, because that is their job, says "Nope. You're lying. Our expertise outweighs your belief in your innocence. And our reputations are on the line if we, at this point, in the public arena, change our stance. Accept your guilt." One term for this is institutional gas-lighting.

Then there are the appeals to your better nature - the one you obviously don't have because you're a child abuservir killer. There are long conversations with professionals who point out how traumatic it is for the people who are essentially victimising you to have to do so. They want this to be over for everyone's sake. They are losing sleep and under stress because you won't admit your obvious guilt - obvious to everyone but you, because you were there, you know you didn't do it.

So because you're a tough nut to crack, the psychologists come in. They are even more uneasy and uncomfortable in some cases. They find you challenging, you don't have a diagnosable condition to explain your aberration behaviour. There are a few pink flags, potentially - you come from a broken home, one of your parents had a mental breakdown in your childhood, but your school record is good, you've never been in trouble with the law, you are not an addict or an alcoholic. You have loved and well cared for pets. Your biggest "symptom" is doggedly maintaining your innocence and bringing your research to experts who don't want to see it. In the courts eyes, this makes you even worse. You have no mitigating factors to provide a reason for your heinous acts.

And the cost. The extravagant waste of public money. Oh yes. This can't go on for ever. You are by pursuing your innocence, taking money from the public purse, and putting vulnerable children at risk, tying up professionals with better things to do with all your nonsense of proclaiming innocence. If you had a shred of decency you'd just confess and let everyone go back to their lives.

In criminal court, a confession can make prison life less onerous. The authorities will make concessions. Maintaining your innocence gets you a much rougher ride. Hence false confessions and admissions of guilt. When an innocent person has confessed, and is then exonerated, people are baffled. "If you are innocent, why did you do that?" some will ask, usually those with no direct knowledge or experience of such legal proceedings. The answer is because they took legal advice. They were ground down to the point where they had actually started to doubt their innocence through the subtle brainwashing employed by the raft of people telling them, for a fact, they were guilty, and also telling everyone around them, including a jury.

There is of course the appeals process, and the CCRC. So all is not necessarily lost. But that depends on having a legal team ongoing that you can work with closely enough while navigating and trying to survive in the prison system which is obviously designed to punish you and remind you every day that you are guilty, even if you're not.

I ask you, if you were in this situation, how far do you think you'd go to prove your innocence in the face of all that? Knowing that to all intents and purposes you were potentially pissing in the wind ? Realising that every time you brought up a detail that might be relevant your legal team and the authorities were essentially rolling their eyes at your naivety and may have got to the point of wishing you'd just shut up and get over it?

In my own case, I had to back down or lose my child to adoption. There are many versions of this hell you see.

Golaz · 07/09/2024 07:58

Kittybythelighthouse · 06/09/2024 23:18

The police had no issue talking to media while they were still investigating in the run up to both trials. They’ve only now decided to batten down the hatches because they are facing criticism.

It was Liz Hull that announced that there were 9 deaths Letby is not connected to in the same period. That’s Liz Hull - she of the daily mail podcast The Trial - one of the few journalists who has direct access to and trust of the police AND Dr Brearey, Dr Evans, and Dr Jarayam. Are you saying you don’t trust Liz Hull? Because I’m certain I’ve seen you promote her podcast as the best source for info on this case. There were 9 deaths. 4 of them were due to infection - funny enough that’s the very thing many of the Letby murder victims were originally diagnosed with in their post mortems.

Letby’s defence barrister in both trials, Ben Myers KC, is still working alongside MacDonald on Letby’s team. He is still her defence barrister for the Baby K appeal. MacDonald is working pro bono on the CCRC application and going forward. I assume Letby doesn’t have a lot of money left for anything else given she had to sell her house to help pay for her defence so far.

yep her latest article ironically confirms the worst fears about that rota “chart” and is further evidence that the commonplace belief - 13 deaths, Lucy present for all - is bull.
That rota chart appears to be just what people feared - a chart of Lucy shifts when there were deaths that happened. It also shows there was a significant spike in deaths on the unit 2015/16 (9) irrespective of the deaths Lucy was supposedly responsible for. So what caused that spike ? Further more it’s evidence that the reduction of deaths after Lucy left to zero must have been due to more than just the removal of Lucy’s presence.

Probablyfinebutworried · 07/09/2024 08:55

FOJN · 05/09/2024 17:03

Your post is an excellent example of how what was presented in court is accepted without question. I worked in adult ICU for many years and your first paragraph just raises questions for me.

How could LL "admit" that insulin was injected into the bag if she didn't do it. I accept that's what she said in court but unless she witnessed someone do it she cannot confirm anything more than the blood tests were indicative of insulin being added to the bag. Her testimony cannot be confirmation that the bags were poisoned. The testing method used did not meet the forensic standard required for evidence in a criminal trial, the lab made this quite clear.

If the bag was poisoned by one of three people then LL is only suspected because she was on duty when other babies collapsed/deteriorated, however the table that presented that evidence, which was treated as compelling by the court, has shown to be flawed because only the babies who collapsed whilst she was on duty were included.

I haven't got time to write an essay on the overfeeding allegation but it would certainly warrant one.

If you ever do get time to write a out the overfeeding one, I'd be keen to read it

Toothrush · 07/09/2024 08:59

Golaz · 07/09/2024 07:58

yep her latest article ironically confirms the worst fears about that rota “chart” and is further evidence that the commonplace belief - 13 deaths, Lucy present for all - is bull.
That rota chart appears to be just what people feared - a chart of Lucy shifts when there were deaths that happened. It also shows there was a significant spike in deaths on the unit 2015/16 (9) irrespective of the deaths Lucy was supposedly responsible for. So what caused that spike ? Further more it’s evidence that the reduction of deaths after Lucy left to zero must have been due to more than just the removal of Lucy’s presence.

Edited

Did you follow the trial? Her defence mentioned this plenty of times.

Iwasafool · 07/09/2024 09:03

AnywhereAnyoneAnyTime · 06/09/2024 20:47

She’s not a mass murderer, she’s a serial killer. There’s a difference.

And while being unpleasant doesn’t necessarily make someone a murderer, having been tried and convicted in court for the murder and attempted murder of multiple babies does.

Legally it does but if she didn't do it then no she isn't a serial killer in reality.

Probablyfinebutworried · 07/09/2024 09:05

Namename12345562 · 05/09/2024 17:40

I mean wasn’t BA called the Angel of death or something? I don’t think that’s a name given to someone who looks like an ogre 🤔

Shipman was also called Angel of Death. (I don't think BA was ugly though, fairly average, as is LL)

Gloriia · 07/09/2024 09:23

'Rob Rinder is experienced in complex cases yes but his speciality is fraud and money laundering. Not quite the same as baby murder'

He is clearly intelligent and experienced in interpreting data & evidence, unlike the jury.

Probablyfinebutworried · 07/09/2024 09:24

cadburyegg · 05/09/2024 19:35

It's NORMAL for NICU nurses to let a baby self-recover from oxygen dips.

I've always wondered why it was considered so odd that she was "caught" standing by a baby "doing nothing". If she was "caught in the act", as has been claimed, wouldn't she be doing SOMETHING, to try to cover up what she'd done?

It was also the consultant who thought she was guilty who saw this happen. But didn't think it shocking enough to report it or even write it in his notes I gather. Also, I believe it was this incident that was presented as her being alone but has recently come to light that the door swipe data was wrong and actually the other nurse was in the room too. I wonder if that contradicts what the consultant said (Jayaram I think? Something like that)

Golaz · 07/09/2024 09:27

Toothrush · 07/09/2024 08:59

Did you follow the trial? Her defence mentioned this plenty of times.

Mentioned what exactly?
there has been no precise clarification of exactly how many other deaths there were on the unit and who was present for these. This is the whole problem . furthermore, They failed to put a statistician on the stand to explain the implications/ issues with this.

Golaz · 07/09/2024 09:28

Probablyfinebutworried · 07/09/2024 09:24

It was also the consultant who thought she was guilty who saw this happen. But didn't think it shocking enough to report it or even write it in his notes I gather. Also, I believe it was this incident that was presented as her being alone but has recently come to light that the door swipe data was wrong and actually the other nurse was in the room too. I wonder if that contradicts what the consultant said (Jayaram I think? Something like that)

Exactly. If he really thought this was a problem/ attempted murder, he obviously would have dealt with it AT THE TIME!

LonginesPrime · 07/09/2024 10:12

The doctors went to the police just after Letby won a grievance dispute against them for bullying her. You can make of that what you will.

This was raised at the trial and reported in the press - the grievance dispute was in response to Letby having been removed from clinical duties after two more babies died, and the 'bullying' the doctors were accused of took the form of singling out Letby as the cause of the deaths, demanding her removal from the ward and insisting that CCTV be installed in the rooms.

The hospital investigated the grievance, found in Letby's favour and forced the doctors to apologise for accusing her of being responsible for the deaths and unsafe to work with vulnerable patients.

This will all be examined in detail during the Thirlwall Inquiry as this is one of the three limbs.

Laundryblue · 07/09/2024 10:19

You are found guilty 'beyond reasonable doubt'. Since her trials doubts have been raised about some of the evidence the jury was presented with.
I think a review of the evidence (by experts) is called for, and then (depending on findings/amount of doubt) a retrial.

LonginesPrime · 07/09/2024 10:56

The thing that baffles me is that some of the experts who are saying they think it's an unsafe conviction have admitted that they haven't actually read the final judgment, nor court transcripts, etc - they know their area of expertise inside out, but not the details of this particular case, so it's hard to take them seriously about this case when they don't know how (or even whether) their arguments have any relevance to Letby's convictions.

The defence withdrew their appeal on the insulin testing accuracy, they accepted the swipe card errors when they had the opportunity to challenge them, and so on. Unless anyone is arguing that they are incompetent (which isn't borne out by Letby retaining them for all her legal aid work she's entitled to), then why assume they can't be trusted to know what's the best strategy for her?

They must have had their reasons for dropping certain points (e.g. IIRC, some of the door swipe data was being relied on by Letby's defence in the original trial, and it was the prosecution who pointed out that colleagues can walk through doors together, etc).

If the defence team come out and say "we weren't allowed to call this expert because they weren't approved/were too expensive" or "we appealed this point and the judge refused for a trivial reason", then I could understand the uproar.

But points that people are raising as requiring review aren't generally the points on which the defence have pointed to as grounds for appeal. They know more about Letby's case and its potential weaknesses than anybody else, so if they're not pushing these points, I don't think anyone else is helping Letby by doing so.

I think that if people think she's innocent and want to help Letby, they should read the judgment and its reasoning, and amplify the things the defence was actually arguing for (assuming they disagree with the Court of Appeal's decision). Dragging up other points may well work against her, so I'd take your lead from her defence team if you want to help her.

Namename12345562 · 07/09/2024 11:15

Probablyfinebutworried · 07/09/2024 09:05

Shipman was also called Angel of Death. (I don't think BA was ugly though, fairly average, as is LL)

Agree, I mean objectively Harold Shipman looked so stereotypically ‘normal/respectable’ along with his profile etc 🤷🏻‍♀️

MikeRafone · 07/09/2024 11:18

The thing that baffles me is that some of the experts who are saying they think it's an unsafe conviction have admitted that they haven't actually read the final judgment, nor court transcripts,

The experts have said that they have concern with the evidence in their particular field, the evidence that they are expert.

BreatheAndFocus · 07/09/2024 11:25

Golaz · 07/09/2024 07:46

The doctors went to the police just after Letby won a grievance dispute against them

highlighting this

Why the highlighting? If, as I think you’re suggesting, the doctors were annoyed at being made to apologise to LL, choosing to accuse her of hurting and murdering babies is hardly a common or proportionate response, is it? Lots of people have annoyed me during my work career. The only one I reported was one who breached the safety rules (and was later sacked). The idea that the doctors were upset and embarrassed so decided to get one over on Letby by reporting her for murder is ridiculous!

Far more likely, is that they had genuine concerns, and the hospital hadn’t looked into them properly, so the next step was the police.

Notmyfirstusername · 07/09/2024 11:29

The people who believe that Letby is innocent due to being mentally healthy, are you aware that the court had to be cleared when she entered the witness box as she couldn’t stand anyone watching her walking? She also required a ‘snuggle blanket’ for comfort. Several times when she was caught in what seemed like a blatant lie, and she was unable to give a reasonable answer to her actions, court was adjourned until the following day (at lunchtime) or after the weekend, when she could miraculously recall something that she couldn’t remember in her original questioning after initial arrest, subsequent arrests, questioning by her barrister or the previous day when cross examined, almost as if she was weaponising her tears to control proceedings in order to give herself more time to make stuff up. The leeway she was given in court as the accused was incredible, especially given the way we treat alleged rape victims giving evidence.

she testified through tears that these issues were due to PTSD after being humiliated during her arrest when she was just wearing a night dress, something she had to admit was incorrect after the prosecution offered to show the video of her wearing a ‘Lee Cooper Leisure Suit’ ( A tracksuit for everyone else not in KC land).
This was one of many extremely odd lies she was caught in during her cross-examination, the most infamous was attempting to convince the jury that a woman in her late 20’s didn’t know what ‘go commando’ meant when her friend used it in a text message.
Looking at the transcript of that cross examination, it would be interesting to see how differently she would have answered several questions if her parents had not been in the courtroom. Realistically, is it possible that if a person is willing to lie about stuff like that in order to protect her image in front of her parents, is it really a stretch to think she’d maintain her innocence in order for them to continue to still see her as their perfect child?

Nobodywouldknow · 07/09/2024 11:29

Well the only way she will get a retrial is if the courts grant her one if the criminal cases review commission send her case back to court. I don’t think that will happen. I think her conviction is safe. It seems few to none of the experts have reviewed all the evidence together - they have focused on little bits that relate to their own expertise but not the whole picture. She was not convicted on the basis of statistics- it was a small piece of the puzzle. She was also not convicted on the basis of a “confession” in the form of the notes - again it was a small piece of the puzzle. The defence didn’t manage to find any medical experts to challenge the prosecution case and I doubt that’s due to incompetence. There was a lot of evidence in this case - it’s why the trial took 10 months. You might not agree with the verdict but she has had her opportunity to put her case to the court.

Oftenaddled · 07/09/2024 11:32

LonginesPrime · 07/09/2024 10:56

The thing that baffles me is that some of the experts who are saying they think it's an unsafe conviction have admitted that they haven't actually read the final judgment, nor court transcripts, etc - they know their area of expertise inside out, but not the details of this particular case, so it's hard to take them seriously about this case when they don't know how (or even whether) their arguments have any relevance to Letby's convictions.

The defence withdrew their appeal on the insulin testing accuracy, they accepted the swipe card errors when they had the opportunity to challenge them, and so on. Unless anyone is arguing that they are incompetent (which isn't borne out by Letby retaining them for all her legal aid work she's entitled to), then why assume they can't be trusted to know what's the best strategy for her?

They must have had their reasons for dropping certain points (e.g. IIRC, some of the door swipe data was being relied on by Letby's defence in the original trial, and it was the prosecution who pointed out that colleagues can walk through doors together, etc).

If the defence team come out and say "we weren't allowed to call this expert because they weren't approved/were too expensive" or "we appealed this point and the judge refused for a trivial reason", then I could understand the uproar.

But points that people are raising as requiring review aren't generally the points on which the defence have pointed to as grounds for appeal. They know more about Letby's case and its potential weaknesses than anybody else, so if they're not pushing these points, I don't think anyone else is helping Letby by doing so.

I think that if people think she's innocent and want to help Letby, they should read the judgment and its reasoning, and amplify the things the defence was actually arguing for (assuming they disagree with the Court of Appeal's decision). Dragging up other points may well work against her, so I'd take your lead from her defence team if you want to help her.

A court transcript would cost £10,000 for this trial.

There's no suggestion in Evans's frequent media appearances that he has more evidence for the murder methods he suggests than appears in the press reports on the trial.

Medical experts have said that they don't find murder through air in feeding tubes plausible. No detail has emerged from the trial as to any prior examples, volume of air required etc.

They've stated that natural deaths are a plausible cause of death where air embolism is being blamed. Reports from the trial about rashes and scans don't offer the sort of evidence they'd need to accept this.

They've stated that the lab tests for insulin weren't suitable for forensic purposes, for identifying synthetic insulin. That information is in the public domain.

There are reasonably detailed reports on all of these things, and the experts raising concerns aren't saying the verdict should be reversed on their say so. They are saying that what they have heard from the trial is unconvincing, and that excerpts from the trial are concerning.

It seems to me unlikely that supplementary evidence with prior cases, proof of air embolism, counterpoint to unsuitable lab tests exists and was presented and has somehow gone unreported. These aren't minor quibbles. Evans is still very communicative with the media and could explain more if he cared to. There's a spectrum between quibbling with little information and expressing serious reservations with the best information available. If we don't accept that latter as a reasonable starting point for discussion in the public sphere, we are tilting the scales further towards the wealthy in our justice system.

BreatheAndFocus · 07/09/2024 11:35

Golaz · 07/09/2024 07:58

yep her latest article ironically confirms the worst fears about that rota “chart” and is further evidence that the commonplace belief - 13 deaths, Lucy present for all - is bull.
That rota chart appears to be just what people feared - a chart of Lucy shifts when there were deaths that happened. It also shows there was a significant spike in deaths on the unit 2015/16 (9) irrespective of the deaths Lucy was supposedly responsible for. So what caused that spike ? Further more it’s evidence that the reduction of deaths after Lucy left to zero must have been due to more than just the removal of Lucy’s presence.

Edited

I’m sure I read that the chart was a list of suspicious deaths and then nurses on shift were added to it, not a list of LL’s shifts and then adding the babies. The drawing up of such a list and the plotting of who was on duty at that time is normal. This is from a book about BA. It shows they had the suspicious deaths listed first:

“By the time I was consulted, the police had, by examining the nursing time sheets, established statistical evidence linking Allitt with each of the suspect hospital cases. There was a remarkable coincidence between the times when she was on duty and the occurrence of unexpected events in all 13 children. The chance of this being coincidence was calculated to be less than one in 10 million. In ten of the cases, the child's illness could have had a perfectly natural explanation – and even in the cases of Paul Crampton, Claire Peck and Becky Phillips there was an extremely remote possibility that the damage was accidental. It was only when all the cases were taken together and had been investigated in greater detail than had originally been considered necessary for clinical purposes that the whole thing fell into place.”

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2270251/

While such a chart alone isn’t proof of anything, drawing up such a chart is normal.

Beverly Allitt: the nurse who killed babies

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2270251

Oftenaddled · 07/09/2024 11:37

Notmyfirstusername · 07/09/2024 11:29

The people who believe that Letby is innocent due to being mentally healthy, are you aware that the court had to be cleared when she entered the witness box as she couldn’t stand anyone watching her walking? She also required a ‘snuggle blanket’ for comfort. Several times when she was caught in what seemed like a blatant lie, and she was unable to give a reasonable answer to her actions, court was adjourned until the following day (at lunchtime) or after the weekend, when she could miraculously recall something that she couldn’t remember in her original questioning after initial arrest, subsequent arrests, questioning by her barrister or the previous day when cross examined, almost as if she was weaponising her tears to control proceedings in order to give herself more time to make stuff up. The leeway she was given in court as the accused was incredible, especially given the way we treat alleged rape victims giving evidence.

she testified through tears that these issues were due to PTSD after being humiliated during her arrest when she was just wearing a night dress, something she had to admit was incorrect after the prosecution offered to show the video of her wearing a ‘Lee Cooper Leisure Suit’ ( A tracksuit for everyone else not in KC land).
This was one of many extremely odd lies she was caught in during her cross-examination, the most infamous was attempting to convince the jury that a woman in her late 20’s didn’t know what ‘go commando’ meant when her friend used it in a text message.
Looking at the transcript of that cross examination, it would be interesting to see how differently she would have answered several questions if her parents had not been in the courtroom. Realistically, is it possible that if a person is willing to lie about stuff like that in order to protect her image in front of her parents, is it really a stretch to think she’d maintain her innocence in order for them to continue to still see her as their perfect child?

Sounds as if she was extremely stressed and not coping well with the arrest, imprisonment and trial for murder.

That could happen whether or not you were guilty of murder.

She was obviously in a very different place when she was working on the ward, so you really can't work backwards from her trial and say she would have behaved similarly before this experience.

Oftenaddled · 07/09/2024 11:40

We've never had clarity on how the chart was drawn up and what constituted a suspicious incident in Letby's case, @BreatheAndFocus

Oftenaddled · 07/09/2024 11:45

If there had been stronger evidence, like clear medical evidence of death by the causes described, or a single eyewitness report of Letby harming a child, the trial might have been much shorter, @Nobodywouldknow

A long trial and lots of evidence aren't arguments for a safe conviction in themselves.

Notmyfirstusername · 07/09/2024 11:50

@Oftenaddled , there is proof that she behaved in infantile ways before arrest, imprisonment and trial. On how many occasions are parents allowed in employment disciplinary hearings, when that parent has no connection with the work place and the employee is not a minor? In order for her father to be allowed to attend for support, occupational health must have had reason to believe that Letby was particularly vulnerable. It’s normal to have a work colleague and/or a union representative, but a parent?

BreatheAndFocus · 07/09/2024 11:52

Oftenaddled · 07/09/2024 11:40

We've never had clarity on how the chart was drawn up and what constituted a suspicious incident in Letby's case, @BreatheAndFocus

Somebody on this thread mentioned a website with information from the trial but didn’t provide a link because they didn’t know if they were allowed to. I’d be interested to see it.

@Oftenaddled I read that when the police were called in, they drew up a list of deaths over that period, then put any deaths that might be suspicious on the chart, then plotted the nurses who were on shift or not for each of those deaths. Some deaths would have been obviously ‘expected’ or of an obvious natural cause so wouldn’t be included.

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