Lucy Letby case - Rob Rinder and David Davies

[LimeFawn]

Going back to thread in summer about Lucy Letby case needing criminal case review- surely that has to happen now?

In the past couple of days, I have seen David Davis MP talking about this on Good morning - apparently senior neonatal doctors contacted him directly;

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5HcW71BSGSM

Rob Rinder who is an expert in criminal law has also raised concerns- pic included below.

And article in guardian about her notes which was used a lot in this mumsnet thread as proof of guilt:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5115849-to-think-the-lucy-letby-case-needs-a-judicial-review

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/article/2024/sep/03/i-am-evil-i-did-this-lucy-letbys-so-called-confessions-were-written-on-advice-of-counsellors

Surely there is enough new information coming to light to justify a criminal case review - her conviction really doesn’t seem safe at all?

Offender profiling does not have a reliable evidence base.

Yup, Gill is very good in his own area but he speaks before he thinks and happily pronounces on areas he knows nothing about.
I have a lot of respect for him but he is being ridiculous here.

This is true. Although, even other nurses who worked with her made comment (and were sympathetic)to how it was always "her babies" (as in the ones she was looking after) that seemed to be effected. As revealed through her text messages with other staff at the time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathleen_Folbigg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucia_de_Berk_case

https://evidencebasedjustice.exeter.ac.uk/tag/wrongful-conviction/

whether LL is not guilty or guilty I don’t know, but I’m extremely doubtful it’s a safe verdict.

the entire case seem to have been built on making a case around LL and finding her guilty, not finding out if it was a murder case and if some did murder the babies.

But how did deliberate poisoning with insulin become one of the agreed facts of the case?

But then we also hear how they said ‘oh no not nice Lucy’ and how a nurse gave a statement in support of her when a dr had silenced an alarm and they were trying to blame LL this nurse apparently said she saw the dr do it but he had no recollection of it

I'm sorry but I think she's guilty. If she wasn't such an appealing "girl next door" type I wonder how many others would agree with me. Take the case of Beverley Allitt, the nurse who murdered babies also with insulin back in the early 90's. She was (by conventional standards) unattractive and uncharismatic. The general public were in no doubt she did it from the get go, even before they'd heard any particular evidence. There are a few similarities between the two cases, most notably that Allitt formed unusually strong bonds with the bereaved parents. One parent even asked her to be godmother to her surviving daughter.

I think subconscious bias is playing a part in this. The "Polyanna" Letby compared to the "decidedly odd looking" Allit.

https://www.bayesianspectacles.org/origin-of-the-texas-sharpshooter/

from what I can see, this is how the case has been constructed- with LL as the bullseye, painted on afterwards

He's a criminal defence barrister, how is that not an expert?

I have no opinion on whether she is guilty or innocent, but I do wonder if she even knows herself what really happened now.

She was first accused in 2016, she was arrested three times and has been in prison since 2020.
She's been portrayed as the most evil woman in Britain and told she will have to spend the rest of her life in isolation, every detail of her life has been reported in the international media and it has also ruined the lives of her parents. By this stage I think I’d have gone insane to be honest, whether I was guilty or not.

This is interesting, and for sure an interesting debate. I am open to believe that it may not have been LL, but what an awful miscarriage of justice, if so. I suppose I listened to the evidence with the idea that she was already guilty. But, perhaps a different perspective would alter the way I see the evidence that was presented.

I think drs and nurses are so used to switching off and ignoring alarms it's probably an autopilot reaction that he doesn't remember (much like "have I shut the front door")

This is really interesting, I hadn't thought of this. But you may well be right

I also think she is innocent and we will see this has been an awful miscarriage of justice at some point in the future.

I thought she said it in her oral evidence? Lawyers aren't allowed to tell their clients what to say in evidence or coach them, it's strictly forbidden. They actually aren't allowed to talk about their evidence to their lawyers during the whole time they are giving evidence. Why did she say it on the witness stand if she didn't believe it? Anyway, it wasn't an agreed fact as such, it was still explored in the trial and an expert for the prosecution testified that he believed it was insulin poisoning. LL then agreed but I think most people, including the jury, realise that she does not have sufficient expertise to be able to conclude this.

I think it was presented in that way but now more and more is surfacing it’s just looking less of a stable conviction by the day . I really think it’s now at the point it is in the public interest for a retrial. I would be so anxious if I worked in the nhs as well so I think from that perspective it’s vitally important.

Exactly. Just imagine for one minute she is innocent - I cannot imagine the torture of being locked away forever, being branded a monster, losing everything you have ever worked for (I am also a Nurse). Even if she is ever released mud sticks and I cannot imagine her life would ever be normal again.

This- the jury know more than we do. It's awfully odd just how many babies died in her care, that were otherwise improving. I just feel so sorry for the parents with all this being dragged up all the time.

It’s hard to form an accurate view because unlike in the US, so much is not present in the public sphere. We just don’t know what we don’t know.

My understanding is that it was conceded before the trial that the insulin cases were deliberate poisoning. She couldn’t say anything different from the witness box because she hadn’t been given the alternative explanation.

Sally Clark.

https://evidencebasedjustice.exeter.ac.uk/case/sally-clarke/

I can’t think of any other convicted serial killer that had so many people insisting they were innocent. It’s odd.

The only thing that really bugs me - is I have a DD on some of those IV bags that have been mentioned ( tpn ) etc and the glucose situation never made much sense to me.

even removing the deaths that letby “ committed “ the hospitals mortality rate for the level unit was extremely high. What did these babies die off the ones they couldn’t state letby was there ?

I don't know if Lucy Letby is guilty but I think the case you are talking about it quite different to this one. In that case the ONLY evidence against the mother was statistical (ie. it's statistically very unlikely for two babies to die of SIDS in the same family). There was no evidence of murder but they convicted her anyway (on the statistical unlikeliness of it happening without foul play). In this case there is already a conclusion that the babies have not died of natural causes and they are looking for a perpetrator (and have since convicted LL).

Anything written in the press is absolute bullshit tbh! I discovered this when i had a friend murdered in a high profile case and was shocked at just how much rubbish was written in the media and how much was left out!