Lucy Letby case - Rob Rinder and David Davies

[LimeFawn]

Going back to thread in summer about Lucy Letby case needing criminal case review- surely that has to happen now?

In the past couple of days, I have seen David Davis MP talking about this on Good morning - apparently senior neonatal doctors contacted him directly;

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5HcW71BSGSM

Rob Rinder who is an expert in criminal law has also raised concerns- pic included below.

And article in guardian about her notes which was used a lot in this mumsnet thread as proof of guilt:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5115849-to-think-the-lucy-letby-case-needs-a-judicial-review

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/article/2024/sep/03/i-am-evil-i-did-this-lucy-letbys-so-called-confessions-were-written-on-advice-of-counsellors

Surely there is enough new information coming to light to justify a criminal case review - her conviction really doesn’t seem safe at all?

Unfortunately this 2024 "correct speak" is the fashionable 'go to' to shut conversation down.

"Ah but if she was black you'd think she was guilty" or "if she was from a council estate you'd believe it " (ironically it's never black or economically disadvantaged people saying these things - it's usually their characteristics being bandied about by white middle class women as some kind of virtue signalling Olympics) quite offensive in it's own right.

I'm not going to comment on the ethics of people questioning the verdict . However, it's not healthy to shut people's opinions up with basically accusing them of only feeling sorry for "white pretty rich girls" - it's becoming a tired cliche.

your assumption that everyone you talk to on the internet is sighted is amusing, nothing to do with 2024 political correctness

Indeed.

"Ah but if she was black you'd think she was guilty" or "if she was from a council estate you'd believe it " (ironically it's never black or economically disadvantaged people saying these things - it's usually their characteristics being bandied about by white middle class women as some kind of virtue signalling Olympics) quite offensive in it's own right.

Yep. This happens on every Letby thread. Speaking as someone who's a bit too chavvy for a lot of MNers, it's interesting to watch people unthinkingly trot this out, without having stopped to even consider that the specifics of the people involved works both ways. I've yet to see a single person who's claimed this show any evidence of having reflected on whether they'd feel the same way about the conviction of Letby had been done for killing, say, convicted murderers.

Some of Shipman’s patients died of natural causes during the time he was killing other patients. That doesn’t mean he didn’t kill the other patients. Some of his patients will also have died when he was nowhere in the vicinity nor had been for ages before. Again, that doesn’t mean he didn’t kill the patients he was found guilty of murdering.

Yes, possibly the hospital with the motive of hiding the extent of their poor standards, and possibly the prosecutors to not look incompetent.

Sorry if this has already been answered, but have the number of infant deaths on that ward reduced greatly since she was arrested? Wouldn't that be an indication of her guilt?

Agreed. Also waiting for yet another convenient excuse an answer to this.

Ok, I'll rephrase, nobody I've ever heard saying these things in real life have actually been from the marginalised groups they're using (apt choice of word there) to draw comparison.

Its more offensive really , it reeks of "let's wheel the black, brown and poor people out" to virtue signal and draw comparison, (and shut down the conversation). Win, win.

I've posted this in discussions about Letby before - an academic consideration of some of the statistical arguments used. I find it an interesting read.

journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/00258024241242549

They did. However, at the same time Letby was suspended, the hospital was downgraded so it would no longer take the most vulnerable babies, so that would also explain the drop in deaths.

During the trial it came out that she had access to two shredders in the time she had the notes, she also moved them with her when she moved houses in a box labelled 'keep'. This isn't someone who has just forgotten about a few that were taken by accident, is it? There was also sats taken during resuscitation attempts she had that she hadn't written herself, so she must have dug them out of the bin or purposefully acquired them somehow surely which is weird. I agree that they don't mean much if anything on their own, but it's just one example from the trial that people keep explaining away as well everyone does it whilst missing the actual detail which is different to the narrative. Her reasoning for having them was simply that she liked collecting paper; not even an attempt to explain why an (allegedly) competent nurse who would know how to handle these sorts of notes and the disposal rules came to have them.

But some of the babies in this trial would have still been cared for in the downgraded unit due to the conditions. There's a misconception that all babies in a neonatal ward are poorly to the point where death is sadly not that unusual, when that really isn't the case.

@andHelenknowsimmiserablenow Not necessarily. If a large scale incident or incidents occur of any kind, standards will be doubled, tripled, infinite for a period of time thereafter.

To draw a different comparison, and not use deaths as an example (feels poor taste) there was a big thing in a local trust where it emerged elderly people were not being fed at meal times adequately (for all manners of reasons) ..for a good few months, extra staff were employed, special meal time assistants employed, staff were watched by very senior members of staff at dinner time and handing out meals/feeding people became an absolute priority "stop everything, all hands on deck" special tabards were worn the lot , audits occuring. So figures in that particular area would have gone to put it so crudely, from "nobody's getting fed", to "everyone's getting fed and to a high standard".

You can see how you can apply that to cases of deaths.

Just to answer your question. Not drawing any conclusions on the case in question.

Ok I stand corrected in that case. If she had access to two shredders, you would think they'd eventually be disposed of at some point yes.

I read an analysis that went through the specific vulnerabilities of each of the babies she was accused of killing and the criteria based on hospital grade , which demonstrated that all but 1 (? I believe) of the babies who died would have been born / transferred elsewhere after the downgrade.

Where in the post quoted did 'misogyny' and 'bored housewives' come from? Is it yet another inference from the mumsnet experts with oodles of knowledge about this case and all aspects of it?

Oh I see, thank you.

It's become increasingly obvious that some people who're defending LL only see this as some sort of Feminist fight and revolution against 'the system'. What with all the throwing around of the word Misogyny. It's why, in my opinion (not fact, before anyone jumps in), they seem so determined to see LL walk free even if it's on a random technicality. No thought to the victims' families.

Without reading your links, that's the position I've reached. I'm not sure of guilt or innocence. I haven't seen all that the jury saw. But I can't see how, from what has been released, there was no reasonable doubt.

I’m slowly reading through transcripts online , there are a couple of things so far which puzzle me , wonder if anyone can elaborate.
One is the conversation she had with a colleague over texts about the ‘go commando’ comment. When questioned she maintained that she had no idea what that meant, which is really unusual surely?

Also the paper shredder , that she denied having a paper shredder , then remembered she had one but didn’t know where it had come from etc .

You don't know the race of anyone on here unless they tell you. You're also using the same tactics to shut that statement/people down, like you're speaking for the 'marginalised group' as well.

Her reasoning for having them was simply that she liked collecting paper

I mean, that’s just such a rubbish excuse isn’t it? She couldn’t come up with a better reason?

Things like this and the fact she agreed that the deaths sounded like insulin poisoning, not realising this could later be used against her (as she was the only one present) make me think that she really isn’t as clever as some seem to think.

@Shruggss it is frequently implied that mn posters who think the verdict is unsafe have no idea what they are talking about. That they are sofa warriors - the "LL fan club" - who couldn't possibly understand legal or medical arguments. You've done it yourself in your "mumsnet experts with oodles of knowledge" wording ffs! 🤣

Mn is mainly female. Assuming lack of expertise on a female majority site with snarky comments of "experts" whenever you disagree makes it look like you (general you) couldn't possibly comprehend women having informed opinions: hence misogynistic.

HTH.