Page 11 | Refugees "visiting home"

Timeforaglassofwine · 04/09/2024 14:07

The problem is there will be opportinists, but it doesn't sound as though she is one. A short but risky visit, with a safe "out" if the situation escalates, to see family is very different to surviving day to day in a country at war.

Original poster

Notanotherkendoll · 04/09/2024 14:08

@EI12

While I agree they are clearly some flawed characters. Are they on student finance or scholarships? The girl I wrote this about qualifies for student finance but received a scholarship so I wouldn't say that is tax payer money (it's the university's money).
She had to do a foundation year before starting her course. Though this isn't law but Politics and Economics.

OP posts:

Igotjelly · 04/09/2024 14:10

EI12 · 04/09/2024 13:41

Don't even start me on it - I fell out with my ds over it. He befriended some Ukrainians at uni and he believes every word they say. For the past 2 years they have been living here most of the year, having tried Poland first, then Germany, and then the UK. And every summer they drive (!!!!!) to Odessa and back, because apparently they want proper food and proper looking after, food in the UK is 'disgusting', because manicures and hairdressing in the UK is 'disgusting' and because our medicine is 'third world'. But this year it was truly - astounding - they invited my ds to join them (I did not let him go and he is not on speakers with me now) because - listen to this - he (my ds) can easily buy an international driving license there and use it in the UK like they do - they said, worry not, we all bought our licenses, so it won't be a problem. (My ds did not pass his test and shared this information).

They way we are legally (legally) abused is unbelievable. I posted before about my ex SIL (Bulgarian) who cost the UK taxpayer I don't know how much with her extended family (all sponging off was legal, no fake IDs or anything).

Sorry but I don’t believe a word of this.

Fluufer · 04/09/2024 14:11

EI12 · 04/09/2024 14:03

Gosh, I did not explain properly. They came here as 'Ukrainian refugees', did not sit LSAT, because of their circumstances and were given places to read law, at the expense of the taxpayer (they don't pay) and among them, there are some Russians from Crimea, to be taught at the taxpayers' expense, without sitting LSATs. They were given preferential treatment compared to the native applicants. Honestly, you are like my ds!!!!! He too, did not understand that not sitting LSATs and not paying for the degree and going back for holidays was a bit too much, don't you think (not even mentioning law students thinking it is OK to buy a driving license).

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And how exactly do you know all of this? Something has gone very wrong if you are privy to so much sensitive information, and you're sharing it online. Major confidentially breaches! Very concerning.

Igotjelly · 04/09/2024 14:16

Fluufer · 04/09/2024 14:11

And how exactly do you know all of this? Something has gone very wrong if you are privy to so much sensitive information, and you're sharing it online. Major confidentially breaches! Very concerning.

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I suspect they know because it’s entirely fabricated in their head.

Tiredalwaystired · 04/09/2024 14:16

So say you are a young girl who lives in London. Your entire city has been decimated by war. Your house and community is all gone. No work, no school, no hospitals.

pockets of your country remain unscathed and your family move to Scunthorpe*. It’s safer from bombs but not without risk. The influx of people from London makes finding a job there more difficult but the family are making do with the little they have. It’s not home but they have no choice. But there’s an opportunity for their daughter to go somewhere far safer (say, Madrid). They send her there. She is safe and has a good life They have a worse life than before but aren’t at risk of bombs but happy their daughter is safe. They miss her terribly. She goes back to Scunthorpe sometimes to see them but in the current climate it’s no life and she is better off in Madrid. What she really wants is to go back to her home, London. But her home doesn’t exist.

is it really hard to understand?

*No offence intended at Scunthorpe. Sunny Scunny is great. It was just a “not London but still UK example”.

twodowntwotogo · 04/09/2024 14:24

Notanotherkendoll · 04/09/2024 09:03

I'm not sure how I feel after this conversation with a friend so would like to hear other opinions.
My friend took in a Ukrainian refugee back in 2022, she was a 18/19 year old teenager. She didn't stay for long before getting employment/started studying and was able to move out but they have remained in touch and my friend sort of views herself as the girls "uk mum".
Anyway friend is once again beside herself as she has gone back to Kyiv for a few days. This isn't the city she is from but sadly the city she was from was under siege for sometime and is now mostly destroyed. She is going to visit her family who all moved to Kyiv, as the only girl her family pushed her to flee when the war started but her mum stayed put.

This has me thinking, surely if it is safe enough for her to return home to visit, it's safe enough for her to move back? I thought the whole point of being a refugee was that your own country wasn't safe, if you are going back to visit how can that be the case?

AIBU to think it's incompatible with the very nature of being a refugee to be able to visit home?

She sounds so impressive - imagine being forced to leave your home and family as a teenager, unsure if they will survive a war, and make your way as she has, building a life for herself in her new country.

She isn't a refugee, she is under humanitarian protection, i.e. not eligible for recognition as a refugee, but given leave to remain for a period for humanitarian reasons as home was not safe.

As others have said, evacuees in WW2 often visited home temporarily, and maintained links with both home and the areas they were evacuated to.

CutthroatDruTheViolent · 04/09/2024 14:30

amigafan2003 · 04/09/2024 09:11

"surely if it is safe enough for her to return home to visit, it's safe enough for her to move back?"

How heartless can you be?

There is a difference between being safe enough for a visit and safe enough to live in permanently.

There's also a difference between wondering about it and turfing someone out on having a thought in your head.

PandoraSox · 04/09/2024 14:31

EI12 · 04/09/2024 13:58

Spawned is modern slang for appear out of nowhere. It is a non-reflexive verb. How did they come under the Ukrainian scheme? How the f should I know, but they did.

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Right. So you basically are not privy to all the facts.

MarkWithaC · 04/09/2024 14:32

graceinspace999 · 04/09/2024 12:55

There is no argument in your post - just a insult- how clever you are…

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It's not an insult. 'the language around rape changes according to the status of the male' IS convoluted nonsense, as is your comment that 'If they came here as immigrants or refugees it would be unacceptable to stereotype them as rapists.'
And I don't know what you think you're doing if you're 'not arguing with documented cases of rape' but then object to a statement of fact about Russian soldiers using rape as a weapon of war.

Catza · 04/09/2024 14:34

Igotjelly · 04/09/2024 14:10

Sorry but I don’t believe a word of this.

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Actually, it is possible to buy a driving license in Ukraine. They still have an archaic system inherited from the Soviets. That part I do believe. Not sure about the rest.
I keep having these conversations with our lodger that no, you can't just leave untaxed vehicle on a public road. And yes, you do have to pay your tax for the whole year, not just a month at a time whenever you get a notice. No, you can't just adjust mileage on a car before selling as it is recorded during the MOT. No, you can't just drive without insurance because we have cameras on the motorway. No, you can't just pay the police off when you are stopped.
That's not a reflection on him, by the way. It's just that these things are entirely normal at home and he has hard time adjusting.

Codlingmoths · 04/09/2024 14:35

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 04/09/2024 09:17

I have an acquaintance who works in a hostel/ centre for refugees. He tells me that it is quite usual for people who are claiming asylum from war or persecution to return to their countries of origin for a ‘holiday’. (His clients are mainly for Africa or the Middle East).

He thinks it’s ‘lovely’ . Apparently the danger must stop for a couple of weeks, perhaps they have a holiday amnesty ? 🤷🏻‍♀️

Or, maybe, just maybe, they just really really want to see their family. I’ll explain this further for all the people on this thread who don’t seem to know the concept of family. Lots of people really love their family, immediate and extended. They miss them terribly when they are in another country and their heart breaks thinking they will never see them again. So the risk for a week or so seems worth it. May you one day have a family and understand this concept.

EPankhurst · 04/09/2024 14:44

The war in Ukraine is dynamic. She presumably is keeping a close eye on information about the status of the various areas of the country and travel guidance, and taking an informed risk. That's VERY different to being safe for her to move back to, even assuming that she has a home or town to move back to.

KylieAndBaby01 · 04/09/2024 14:58

She might never see her family again, they could be torn to pieces tomorrow, very easy to judge when it’s not your loved ones

KylieAndBaby01 · 04/09/2024 15:06

And there are people who stayed in places that have been destroyed, they refused to leave these places when they had the chance, and died, that mean they are safe?

my friends Ukrainian aunt who was safe in Poland moved back to ukraine forever, she said I don’t care, I’m taking that risk, I’m not leaving my sons and grandsons, I can’t be without them

and kiev/other parts of Ukraine is already full of refugees from other places in Ukraine that have been destroyed, there’s just no space to house them all

she’s obviously taking that risk to see family which could be very last time, and looking at updates on situation there

KylieAndBaby01 · 04/09/2024 15:07

I would risk it too, it could be the last time she ever sees them. I don’t know how I’d be able my loved ones. It’s a short quick visit not the same as living there

inamarina · 04/09/2024 15:13

Sasannach · 04/09/2024 09:18

This attitude of distrust and total scepticism towards people fleeing conflict and desperate situations is so, so tiring and draining. As if people are uprooting their entire lives and making arduous journeys to the UK just to profit from the wonderful, glorious (and not at all dehumanising!!) asylum or benefits systems here. 🙄Change the record already.

Why is it tiring and draining for you, are you a refugee?
I do think it’s quite a complex issue, but it’s sort of understandable if people ask questions and there’s no need to shut them down.
I can imagine why someone would want to go and see their family.
From what I‘ve heard, some areas in Ukraine are relatively calm, but not safe as such, as you never know where/ when Russia will attack next.

inamarina · 04/09/2024 15:29

Zanatdy · 04/09/2024 09:43

They are here on visa’s, they are not refugees, they maintain their Ukrainian passport and travel is not restricted

Edited

That’s interesting. I read the other day that Germany was considering revoking residency permits of asylum seekers who holiday in their country of origin.
Ukranians were to be excluded, and I wondered why, but it’s possibly due to their status.

KylieAndBaby01 · 04/09/2024 15:39

What about those who never left Ukraine? There are people who stayed in Ukraine, in places that have been/ are being destroyed right now, they refused to leave, wives refusing to leave their husbands, people refusing to leave elderly parents/grandparents etc, all those who refused to run when Russia came and died/lost loved ones

does that mean it’s safe because they didn’t leave

if you guys were offered all expenses paid for free luxury trip to Ukraine/you were offered a lot of money to live there for 1 year, I doubt any of you would agree

And my friend talks to family and her aunt who refused to live in Poland and went back to be with her sons everyday, they now live in a ‘safer’ Kyiv, it’s absolutely not safe and the things that she tells is happening everyday in their city, are terrifying, so scary, they haven’t slept really in god knows how long, don’t know how they can live there, i wouldn’t be able to, brave people

nextdoorconundrum · 04/09/2024 15:39

EI12 · 04/09/2024 13:41

Don't even start me on it - I fell out with my ds over it. He befriended some Ukrainians at uni and he believes every word they say. For the past 2 years they have been living here most of the year, having tried Poland first, then Germany, and then the UK. And every summer they drive (!!!!!) to Odessa and back, because apparently they want proper food and proper looking after, food in the UK is 'disgusting', because manicures and hairdressing in the UK is 'disgusting' and because our medicine is 'third world'. But this year it was truly - astounding - they invited my ds to join them (I did not let him go and he is not on speakers with me now) because - listen to this - he (my ds) can easily buy an international driving license there and use it in the UK like they do - they said, worry not, we all bought our licenses, so it won't be a problem. (My ds did not pass his test and shared this information).

They way we are legally (legally) abused is unbelievable. I posted before about my ex SIL (Bulgarian) who cost the UK taxpayer I don't know how much with her extended family (all sponging off was legal, no fake IDs or anything).

My goodness, you like to stereotype don't you !

My Ukrainian guest is lovely, hardworking and a beautiful person. Sorry you haven't had the same experience. Bear in mind there are 'naughty boys' of all nationalities in Universities up and down the country.

Btw - how do you 'stop' an adult going anywhere ? Presume if your son is at University then he is over 18 ?

Wouldhavebeenproficient · 04/09/2024 15:43

I have a Ukranian friend who went home to see the dentist! Which sadly says something about the state of NHS denistry in the UK. There are lots of places round the world I would visit for a short trip but not consider safe to raise a family.

KylieAndBaby01 · 04/09/2024 15:45

She could be killed visiting them

shes risking her life to see her family what could be the last time she ever sees them, and people still judge, unbelievable

KylieAndBaby01 · 04/09/2024 15:48

And from talking to ukrainian/eastern euro friends, all their family and friends living in Europe, can’t wait to leave. A few of them already went back permanently, they couldn’t stand to be away from home/family

lolit · 04/09/2024 15:49

Igotjelly · 04/09/2024 14:10

Sorry but I don’t believe a word of this.

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Why? I am foreign and so many times I met other foreigners here who trash a lot of things about this country, sometimes it is the first thing they start talking about when I tell them where I am from. Frankly I think it's disgusting.

I also believe the thing about fake driving licences, in my country people can even get fake uni degrees 😂

Daddydog · 04/09/2024 15:56

Surely there is a vast difference between going to Kiev to visit Vs trying to live, work and study in a worn torn country? I'm sure the opportunity for people to work and actually live is 10% of what it was in Ukraine. When I last looked at hotel reviews on tripadvisor for Kiev, all the reviews of the big hotels were of people mentioning little electricity or power being available for a few hours. That doesn't sound like a place refugees can go home to and pick up where they last left of yet!