Lucy Letby’s scribbled notes

[Figmentofmyimagination]

At times when I’m feeling acutely distressed, it’s not at all unusual for me to scribble all sorts of dreadful thoughts down on paper eg die die die, hate hate hate, I hate you, I hate you, what’s the point of you, my fault, stupid me, etc etc etc, usually scribbling them all out so nobody can see what I’ve written. I’m pretty sure this is quite a common response to acute mental distress. I agree with this article that it feels very surprising that Letby’s scribblings were used as evidence of a ‘confession’.

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/article/2024/sep/03/i-am-evil-i-did-this-lucy-letbys-so-called-confessions-were-written-on-advice-of-counsellors

Well then explain what makes their post ill informed and nonsensical, with facts and reasoned arguments that address the actual points of evidence.

Dont just trot out, well the jury were there for 9 months - and they returned a mixed verdict so must have been great and how dare you question them (with an insult to boot).

Actually a lot of the concerns revolve around the fact that the jury didn’t get to hear so much of the evidence and there was a huge amount of context missing from the trial- eg the subject of this thread!

One could list all the major miscarriages of justice in British history. I’ve no doubt the jury tried hard for those cases too. They were still overturned.

Much of the problems with this trial are not down the to the jury. Expert witnesses on one side only means the jury effectively only heard one side of the case.

Much of the implausible medical evidence shouldn’t have been presented to the court at all.

The CT's and the weak of mind lol.

@RisingSunn and @Galadriell .what?
it isnt. thats irrelevant

The totality of the evidence was overwhelming.
The defence did not call one expert witness to offer an opinion in court.
They only called one witness to the stand.
She gave evidence and she clearly was not believed by the jury.
The jury listened to all the evidence for nine months.
The jury spent over two weeks deliberating and having listened to ALL the evidence reached soundly based conclusions that differed according to whether they felt satisfied that they could convict beyond all reasonble doubt.

Pretty sure they know more than you to be fair.

I listened to most of the podcasts but found the accounts of babies dying so upsetting that I struggled to think objectively. My mind still wants to avoid thinking about it☹️

"No one knows why"- well, the barrister knows why. The solicitor knows why. Lucy herself knows why. Just you don't know why.

"Small time local solicitor" the solicitor 'instructs' (hires and gives them all the information to date and the fact that the matter is going to trial and what the strategy has been so far) the barrister, and the barrister calls the shots at trial and in the preparation for trial. In litigation with counsel (a barrister) instructed, the solicitor will mostly be gathering information at counsel's request and working with the barrister to formulate the strategy with the highest chance of success.

You have no idea as to the competence of the solicitor, and you are trashing someone's professional reputation- someone who will have worked night and day on this, for years- just on the basis that you, a non-legally trained person on the internet- don't like the jury's decision.

And FWIW her solicitor is a criminal defence solicitor of over 25 years, including obtaining a higher qualification than most criminal defence solicitors more than 15 years ago:

https://russellrussell.co.uk/a-bit-about-us/our-people/richard-thomas

I've suffered with deep depression I have never once scribbled hateful things about myself. I believe she is guilty nothing suggests to me she's innocent.

Miribai is the one woman defence team that LL should have had.

She knows her actual defence team are a bunch of bozos, but has no explanation for any of their decisions other than "i don't know, no-one knows, it's a mystery".

What a terrible pity Miribai didn't offer her services and take over when Mr Myers and his team were proving so incompetent.

The chance was obviously the second trial - yet somehow LL used the same team of bozos again and somehow Mirabai didn't offer her services.

And the requests to appeal; another inexplicable missed opportunity.

It's all such a mystery.

I think she did it, but I always thought those notes were unreliable. She could have been blaming herself, worrying that maybe she’d done it accidentally somehow, all sorts of things go through your mind when you’re severely distressed. If she hadn’t done it but was being accused of it and losing her job and facing prison it’s not hard to see that maybe she would wonder if she had done it without meaning to.

There you go again. How about you engage with the substance of some the points of concern instead of saying things like “I think they know more than you to be fair”. This is why I wrote my initial post to you. I understood very well the point you were trying to make and it was a completely lazy one. Miscarriages of justice happen, for lots of reasons. It’s not good enough to say “well the jury knows more than you”, so you have no right to questions things

Please tell me your substantive points of concern as I have yet to read anything coherent by you on this point?

I thought the notes were used to indicate state of her mind being highly off kilter, not indication of specific guilt.

Murderers often have PTSD for what they've done. It's a weird twist of human psyche, some part of them repeatedly relives the pain & trauma of those moments as though they were the victim. Chronic emotional outbursts fits with the PTSD that violent criminal can have because of the crimes they committed.

Those of you who have tried this emotional written flooding on scraps of paper... do you keep all your scraps? I imagine burning them, in a ritual of letting go not clinging on or obsessing. It's the fact she hoarded her scraps that is really off in my head.

What truly baffles me about this case is how people will die on the hill of protesting this woman’s innocence

No one questioned Wayne Couzens or the other rapist coppers and called it a miscarriage of justice

why does
white woman + nurse pan bang nhs hero = innocent

I have lived with clinical depression since I was 18 years old and I'm now 47 I've never written noted like that.

I reject completely that this is a regular uncommon thing to do.

Where this case falls down for me is the lack of forensic examination around the methods she allegedly used.

If you Google the size of an NG tube for neonates, it's tiny. Forcing sufficient volume of food and / or air into a tiny baby to harm themwould have taken considerable time, and given that other staff and parents would have been in and out of the ward, the opportunity would have been limited and fraught with risk. Since the trial doctors in the field have actively questioned this.

A forensic approach should have investigated how long it would have taken, volume of liquid / air required, and whether this has been seen before in any cases causing collapse.

Likewise the liver injury. A neonates liver is typically between 5 and 7 cm in size, and is located near to where two finger CPR is administered. The emotive language describing the force required to cause the damage seen without external evidence is illogical. If it was caused internally, there would have been other damage.

The insulin issue is a whole other can of worms - the test that flagged it is not suitable for forensic use apparently and further tests should have been done but weren't.

If you are ever accused of a crime and can't prove your innocence, because we operate an adversarial system that hinges more on winning or losing than actual truth and justice, wouldn't you want a more thorough appraisal of the evidence, or would you just accept your fate because experts for the prosecution say you're guilty?

This case was very much more slanted towards the balance of probabilities than beyond reasonable doubt and given the parlous state of the COCH as evidenced by emails from atvlwadt one senior clinician to management at the time, I do think a robust re-examination of this case is called for because right now the whole justice system looks like a bit of a laughing stock at best, and engaging in institutional arse covering at worst, at the expense of all involved including the bereaved families.

If you were paying attention - it’s not just me - it’s a question being asked across the country.

No idea why you’re mansplaining how a legal team works.

We all have a very good idea just how competent the legal team were based on their performance at trial.

If you think that this is about liking the jury’s decision then you are utterly uninformed of the medical and legal discussions around this case.

Straw man argument.

And please don't exaggerate posters' concerns as "a hill to die on" - so not helpful.

Just because you've never done it doesn't mean that people don't do it. I'm not one for writing things down but I definitely become illogical when my mental health is bad and say things very similar to myself that she wrote ie blaming myself for serious things that are not my fault at all. Her writings were extremely similar to where my mind goes when in mental anguish. Lots of others have reported the same and mental health professionals have come forward since the verdict saying that this type of thinking is common.

These notes twisted me up as well. When I was in the trenches with PND/untreated CPTSD I wrote some horrible things down, it was a way to exorcise a lot of intrusive thoughts that I was having about my children and myself. My therapist suggested writing it down and getting it out, it was cathartic.

I think this sort of writing is much more common than people with generally balanced mental health would care to believe.

That fucking evil woman is guilty.

If she wasn't the young blonde with the innocent sounding sing-song voice not one of you would have been so obsessed with doubting the outcome of that trial.

it’s a question being asked across the country.

Not by anyone sensible.

You used these all encompassing, grand phrases in the last two threads too.

Lucy Letby bingo starting again!

I've always been a writer when I'm upset or feeling lost or angry or any strong emotion really. I grew up in a very emotionally abusive home and first started using it as a coping method when I was a teen. I've written all manner of nonsense in my time, all fueled by intense emotion. When I first heard about her notes I straight away thought of the many things I have written. It might not be 'normal' to lots of people but my childhood wasnt 'normal' either and for me it's a way of working through my feelings without hurting or burdening others. I would have a crying session, write it all out then wipe my tears and move on with my day. I'm almost 40 now and can't actually remember the last time I felt the need to do it but for me it really works.

I don't really know enough about Lucy's case to comment on her guilt or in nonce though.

Nah thanks @shuggles

I suggest otherwise