To be shocked this isn't getting more coverage?

[Sugarcoldturkey]

Women in Afghanistan are now forbidden from speaking when not inside their homes. A simple "hello" to someone in a shop is now against the law. https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/article/2024/aug/26/taliban-bar-on-afghan-women-speaking-in-public-un-afghanistan

AIBU to think this is some of the most horrific news I've heard in months? I can't wrap my head around it and I can't help thinking - activists/newspapers/politicians are loud when campaigning about the gender pay gap or the state of child care or a woman's rights to her own body but somehow on this topic no one wants to criticise too often or too loudly.

Is it because religion is mixed in? Or guilt over the war? Or do politicians in particular only care about women's rights when it's a vote-winner in their constituency? Or is it just that it's so terrible and we all feel so powerless to prevent it that we just prefer to ignore the situation?

I'm feeling v v shaken.

I think everyone blames the regimes responsible for what's happening. I'm not sure how you took from my post that I wasn't blaming them.

Christianity is doing plenty of misogyny in the UK too, but no one wants to talk about the disadvantaged position of women and girls in the Traveller community, or closed sects like the Brethren, or the more widespread normalisation of female educational underachievement amongst the working class.

The difference is that these groups aren't trying to impose their will and way of life on the rest of society.

There are lots of wars around the world we have no involvement in at all. Other than change coming from within, what can be done by other countries to help these women?

Yes I remember saying this to one of my (very left wing) relatives. He just dismissed the point. These sort of people (the ones who are always blahing on about various causes) care far more about appearing to be racist than about misogyny.

IME that depends where you ask, EasternStandard

Even on Mumsnet there are plenty of wise posters capable of looking at the wider picture, but they tend to get shouted down by the noisy subset for whom absolutely everything is the west's fault. Scratch the surface to reveal the basic ignorance this involves and you'll then get "But don't you care about the baybeeees?" and similar

It's also revealing to watch some who'd normally support women tie themselves in knots when the oppressors happen to be a minority they'd usually favour, but it's all part of the human experience I guess

The problem is that the 'West' only interferes when we can make money. US in particular but also other western countries only get involved when the country has resources that can by syphoned out and as long as they can by syphoned out, or when you need to put a favourable regime in place to make this happen, or when there is an arms deal that brings a lot of money. If no money is to be made, f* the poor countries, we pull out and leave them be. Rwanda clearly didnt have much going on at the time, because otherwise we would be falling over ourselves to get in there to 'save Tutsis'.

I've seen no reliable evidence to suggest that is remotely likely (we're becoming more secular if anything) but, if the UK ever got to the point that it was Muslim majority country, and that majority voted for sharia law to be implemented then surely they would just be democracy manifest and the will of the people?

“They” and other global rvil actors are 100% manipulating the soft minds of the Tik Tok generation into somehow thinking there is a commonality between LQBTQP and “Palestine”.
Make no mistake, there is no place in “Free Palestine for anyone other than “right thinking” Muslim men.

Why? To destabilize West, get the kind people to send money, shift their own people (men) out so they get jobs and send real currency to home country to build gov & military. Easiest way to get CASH.

I was living in Germany at the time and I remember it also took the German media two to three days to report on the mass attacks in Cologne.
And then Cologne’s then mayor Henriette Reker urged women to keep men at arm’s length (eine Armlänge Abstand) to avoid being sexually harried 🙄

The problem is that these are often linked.
There was an elightening interview with a high ex-CIA agent a while ago where he was explaining why and how US get involved in destabilising countries by prividing training and weapons to put certain people in the governemtn (Osama bin Laden was after all trained by the CIA as one of the efforts to fight against the Soviets in Afghanistan) and to try to control the narrative. But then every once in a while this does not quite work, sh hits the fan and it backfires. Just like it did with Afghanistan. US wanted the Russians out, imposed economic sanctions on the Soviet Union to force them to withdraw, the Soviets did and here we are, after WTC collapse, a pointless war and Taliban government overtaking.

It wasn’t trump, it was Biden 🙄

This is why people complain about two tier polocing (and are called far right for their pains). Those men who threatened that teacher should have been charged. And i didn't see any MPs mentioning it.The more weak the UK govt is the more chance of people like that have of getting more power.

The problem is that the 'West' only interferes when we can make money

I don't disagree, @Tulipsareredvioletsarebue, and even though the US invasion in 2001 was largely brought about by 9/11 I've no doubt plenty saw their opportunity to make a fast buck out of it, even while pretending their real concern was the Afghans themselves

Forgive me for introducing a tangent though, but it's very noticeable that there's no such concern about the Chinese regime's involvement in Africa and what it could mean for the population when they've finished exploiting it.
I've often wondered how those who (justifiably) feel that the British behaved badly think it'll go if anyone wants to challenge the regime's actions, but the engagement on this is nil

Puzzledandpissedoff

I just want to throw in Operation Cyclone to back up my previous post- the US armed the Jihadis in the region. The Afghan Mujahideen received funding and arms from the CIA from ‘79-‘92. Of course we’ve experienced those aftershocks. Even now. Because the region has been permanently destabilised/at war. If you read my post on page 2, you’ll see I’ve attached two pages describing my FIL’s 1961 expedition which included Kabul. And it’s clear that geopolitical tensions existed then. Gender apartheid was grumbling in Kabul in 1961. So of course you’re absolutely right in your point that cultural habits play an influential role, systemically, in the region. The West has had no clear, intellectual idea, culturally speaking, of who they were aiding/fighting/negotiating with over the decades of regional involvement.

Undeniably there was a vacuum created after the Soviets pulled out of Afghanistan. And you’re right, the makings of these regimes are already in place- all the ingredients are there. But political vacuums give these movements/regimes momentum they wouldn’t have had in a stable political environment. The West can exploit those vacuums to their benefit.

The vacuum doesn’t necessarily create the regime but it encourages it. Most regimes can’t exist without a political vacuum. Most. Not all.
Arab Spring… I mean, we could talk for days about that!

I presume the same things that the West has been using for centuries when they really want something from the country in question.

It happens in this country, too - or a version of it. Most people are too naive to see it, especially liberals.

Like some British men who want to import and marry a woman who isn't too 'westernised' in her views. Or some British women who say, "Of course I choose to wear the hijab" because if they said anything else they'd end up on the wrong end of an 'honour' murder.

And now connect that - at least at some level - to the recent unrest in this country which was all conveniently dismissed as right wing extremists. Of course much it was stupid thuggery. But we'll never understand the cause of that unrest if we refuse to look for it.

If you take that perspective, than neither are the Taliban. It's just a matter of scale.

Jews don't fast on Fridays or Saturdays (unless a specific fast day like Yom Kippur) falls on one of those days. In fact the opposite. Friday night dinner is a tradional large meal with family and close friends and it's very common to invite friends to lunch on Saturday after the synagogue.

I think when you live in the UK it is very easy to think that we live in reasonably enlightened times where, over the last fifty years there has been a lot of forward movement for women. In many parts of the world over the last fifty years things have got worse and Afghanistan is a prime example. Some international pressure can be applied, but Afghanistan cares little if its trade is embargoed and sanctioning aid only further hits women and children. So in the short term they have us over a barrel. Longer term we need to keep lobbying so that women's rights are high on the agenda and are properly considered. I may be too optimistic, but might we see some change if we have a women President in the US?

It's demographics of course. The Muslim population is increasing exponentially (doubling every x no of years) and the secular population is declining. I think its the same for Christianity. Its not really democratic as the population has been ignored on this subject.

@Cyclebabble unfortunately I think a female president wouldn’t change things one bit, unless all countries leaders were female and/or cared about women’s rights.

Yes @AdviceNeeded2024 female leaders can be just as useless as male leaders as we've seen.

Superb post, SerenityNowInsanityLater, and you make some very valid points about detstabilisation, which is largely what I meant about the undoubted mistakes the west has made - though they don't excuse the bestial choices of the current regime

Most of all though I agree that "The West has had no clear, intellectual idea, culturally speaking, of who they were aiding/fighting/negotiating with over the decades of regional involvement" and frankly the place might as well be Mars to those whose understanding stretches no further than finding it on a map (and sometimes not even that)

Absolutely. So the last thing women & girls need is extremists of a religion that wants to drag females back to medieval times, and will rape and murder to get their point across, getting into any kind of position of power in the UK.

So far I'm not optimistic that the Government (and I'm a Labour party member lest anyone accuse me of being right wing) has the intelligence or courage to put the welfare of its female citizens over a minority (in the UK) religious faith.

And it's not racist to recognise a particular religion as no friend of women and girls. Islam isn't a race, and we really need to ensure we retain the right to criticise any faith if we disagree with its teachings and influence.