To want a good night's sleep

[Shatteredohyesiam]

Two children aged 5 and 8. Generally quite sensitive. Struggle to sleep.

Current sleeping arrangements:
They share a room. In the room is an extra single bed, which their father and I take turns to sleep in. The 8yo sleeps in the bed with us. The 5yo has dragged down a mattress and cuddly toys and pushed it up next to the single bed.

But this is not enough. They need to wake me, often several times during the night, to tell me something or have a hug or hold my hand. Which means I'm usually woken up between twice and maybe 8 times per night overall.

I feel like we've tried everything over the years. We put them in the same room even though they have a bedroom each. We follow recommended advice about calm evenings and routines and nice stories and no screens. We've tried putting them to bed with twinkly ceiling lights or gentle audiobooks. We've tried leaving after they fall asleep, or leaving them when they are awake, edging our way out over a period of weeks and so on and so forth.

I'm really at my wit's end now. DC8 says I'm scary at nighttime because sometimes I shout when woken up, but the point is that I'm not actually awake because I think my body is trying to keep me asleep. I want to be supportive and loving but I'm so tired. I've not had a proper evening with my husband in years. I'm even thinking about moving house because we live in an old house with exposed stonework which the children don't like, and I wonder if they will sleep better in a smaller house with plain white walls.

Dc5 woke me up at 4am wanting a hug and now I can't sleep. I feel like a monster for not wanting to hug my child but I also just want to sleep.

What can I do?

I'll take it from the silence that either there is no solution or that I'm rambling so much that nobody understands me 😂

Well, the solution is to stop having a chat or giving them a hug when they wake you up. Why on earth are you sleeping with them if this is what happens?

Lots of people won’t agree but I would take a hard line. I’d remove the mattress and tell them that you are not feeling well because you can’t get a good sleep.
I would buy them a new special nightlight/Teddy for bed/blanket which will help them to sleep. Then I’d look to book a day off work for a long weekend and tackle it Friday to Monday.
Lay down clear expectations with a big reward on Monday for which ever child complies.
At night time do rapid return with them and it should settle within a week

I don't have answers I'm afraid OP, but a lot of sympathy - what a total nightmare. Being exhausted is like a form of torture. Do you notice any differences in how they get on when you go away? Do they always share a room and does that help or hinder matters?

I agree with @Miaowm . If all of these hoops you’re jumping through were working that would be one thing, but they’re not. It’s time to reset this entirely.

They are old enough to be told that you need to sleep and they must remain in their own bed. Dedicated cuddle time before bed but after that they must be kind to mummy and daddy and wait til morning. Explain you love hugs and holding hands etc but sleep is very important for an adult body to work properly. If they get up and come looking for you, remind them that you need to sleep and send them back to their room.

As PP said, take a day off and work on it over a long weekend.

Good luck in however you decide to approach it. Lack of sleep is torture!

You need to be hard on this, why are you pandering to them wanting hugs and chats throughout the night? Just say no and sleep in your own bed. Take them back to their room if they get up. They're 5 and 8, old enough to learn they can't do this.

The thing is that I ask them not to wake me up, and I can be brusque with them if they do. It doesn't seem to deter them. I refused dc5 at 4am today and then it was constant tears until I acquiesced at 5am. I suppose I wouldn't give in to a tantrum so I should have just let the crying continue.

And thanks for all the messages of sympathy and ideas of tough love... maybe it's time!

Also, I suppose drip feeding... they won't go anywhere in the house on their own so getting changed, going to the toilet etc has to be a group activity. With dc5 if we refuse to walk him the 20 metres to the toilet then he will wet himself. Dc8 finally getting better at this though. I'm utterly depleted.

This sounds like an exceptional level of anxiety and I'd be taking them to a doctor. Is DC5 at school/pre-school? How does he cope there?

Yep dc5 at school and quite happy/independent. Very kind to other children. Gets home and he basically is either hitting and shouting, or clinging onto me.

Just going out on a limb here but a dog that would be allowed to sleep on a bed between the childrens beds? Then when they wake up, they can hear the dog breathing, scratching, circling etc? That might encourage them to self settle. "Fido is here. You are not alone. Mum trusts Fido to keep you safe. Fido needs sleep, too, so doesn't want to hear your stories but as you dress for school he will be all ears".

Otherwise, I would be in with tough love. You are exhausted, your kids must be exhausted. In Toddler Taming, Dr Chris Green would recommend two nights only of an overnight antihistamine type to encourage solid sleep just to allow parents to recharge and break the cycle. That helps you gather your internal resources. Might that help?

I remember reading a post on another website and one set of parents with an autistic child said they loved camping as the child always slept solidly in the tent. Apparently it was something to do with the levels of fresh air. Is the bedroom window open all night?

A weighted blanket? By the age of 8, I wanted a fallen wall of bricks on me. I loved a heavy weight. Still do.

This is severe anxiety that is way outside the bounds of normal.
I suggest you talk to the school to find out if they have any concerns. Talk to your GP and ask about psychological support, possible psychiatric assessment.
You are so tired you are possibly not seeing the wood for the trees.
What is their relationship with their dad like and how is he handling all this?

They do it because you pander to all these things. Stop doing it, take the fallout for a few days, and move forward. You might need to take a week off work. The trouble is you at the moment are giving in at the first hurdle and have now arrived at this crazy unsustainable situation.

It sounds as if he is masking all day then collapsing into a ball of stress as soon as he gets home.

It maybe that you have to build their confidence up to sleep alone and learn to soothe themselves when they wake up.

You may have tried these:
A plushy/cuddle toy and advise them it's special and magical and to cuddle that when need reassurance.
Start a star chart - take small: like less time waking up and build up to not waking. Celebrate the achievements.
Slolwy progress to leaving the room at night.

Good luck and hope you get a good nights sleep, soon.

I'd stop the sleeping with them. If they wake and get up to get you , silently put them back to bed. No interaction. Everytime.

You need to decide if sharing is a help or hindering.

Toilet id go with rather than the grief of wetting themselves. But getting a toy etc they go without if they won't get it .

Try making it a game they both have to run upstairs to find things, quickest down wins.

They do it because they are allowed to. Sounds brutal maybe, but it IS the truth. And I have two with significant disabilities and one that needs nightly pain management. I’ve had six children, three were very close in age and chose to share for a few years…they knew that night time was no nonsense. Toilet/illness/nightmare, obviously cannot be helped, but otherwise I’m not interacting and definitely not in their room with them. I’d simply say bedtime and walk back to their bed, many many times the first night, then less the second, then less and so on till the new routine is set. You can communicate with your children about this as they are older - mine I did it with each one as pre schoolers.

It is okay to be firm as a parent, in fact at times you are helping them long term and it is your responsibility to recognise this and choose the harder-choice on you physically/mentally short term. You can be firm and still very loving. Your children benefit from the security of boundaries.

I was going to suggest a sticker chart (with a good reward when completed, but your follow up post makes it clear you're way beyond that point.

Children that age absolutely should be going to the loo and pottering around the house by themselves. Time to get to the GP and get the ball rolling on some help for them.

Gro clock and star chart?

I don't know, I think it's habit until I read your update about the day time

I have 4 kiddos. The 2 eldest 9 and 11 are fine. But 9 year old kept getting into our bed until 7.

The younger to 5 and 7 still wake every night and get into our bed kr drag me to theirs. No screaming or crying though.

I pander to it, to get the sleep! My own fault. And they are getting better

I think in your scenario, I would be thinking about going to the GP. It's quite a lot!

I expect they’re terrified of dogs too.

Tough love. You have to. Because this is utterly absurd now.

My DS 14 (ASD) has severe anxiety with OCD. Until he was 10 years old I had to stay with him until he went to sleep and still he woke up every single night to get into my bed. At 9 he started having OCD (handwashing, counting, checking) which prompted the child psychiatrist (whom he had seen since 4 y old) to prescribe a small dose of an antidepressant used for severe OCD in children (not for depression). Hallelujah after 10 years of sleep deprivation he stayed in his room for the whole night!! Which just proves the point that he didn't do it on purpose the poor thing so tough love would have been unjustified.
But your DC not only want to get into your bed, they also wake you up on purpose. See, I explained to my DS that he was not allowed to wake me up so he just came into my bed (which woke me up but I pretended to sleep). I would be strict on the rule that there is no talking at nighttime. And if there is then you will be too tired to do x or prepare x snack whatever they like. And stick to it. Also see a child therapist for their anxiety asap. Wish you luck.

Move house, life's too short to be this tired and drained! I'm aware it's very simple for me as a stranger to just type move house and for you thr reality of that is much harder but you should 100% seriously look into it and find a way to make it happen.
If/once you move then start as you mean to go on, you give them a week to get settled into the new house and then you get tough. Pay a stranger to come "spray" the rooms of the new house with monster spray or whatever it is they are afraid of, you tell them the new house is totally safe but you are doing this to show them how safe it is so all this clinging to you and not sleeping stops and it stops from day 1.
Good luck OP being exhausted makes every situation harder, if you can manage it then arrange a night away in a hotel, you and DH can take turns and then once you both returned having slept and feeling more human get yourselves on rightmove