To want a good night's sleep

[Shatteredohyesiam]

Two children aged 5 and 8. Generally quite sensitive. Struggle to sleep.

Current sleeping arrangements:
They share a room. In the room is an extra single bed, which their father and I take turns to sleep in. The 8yo sleeps in the bed with us. The 5yo has dragged down a mattress and cuddly toys and pushed it up next to the single bed.

But this is not enough. They need to wake me, often several times during the night, to tell me something or have a hug or hold my hand. Which means I'm usually woken up between twice and maybe 8 times per night overall.

I feel like we've tried everything over the years. We put them in the same room even though they have a bedroom each. We follow recommended advice about calm evenings and routines and nice stories and no screens. We've tried putting them to bed with twinkly ceiling lights or gentle audiobooks. We've tried leaving after they fall asleep, or leaving them when they are awake, edging our way out over a period of weeks and so on and so forth.

I'm really at my wit's end now. DC8 says I'm scary at nighttime because sometimes I shout when woken up, but the point is that I'm not actually awake because I think my body is trying to keep me asleep. I want to be supportive and loving but I'm so tired. I've not had a proper evening with my husband in years. I'm even thinking about moving house because we live in an old house with exposed stonework which the children don't like, and I wonder if they will sleep better in a smaller house with plain white walls.

Dc5 woke me up at 4am wanting a hug and now I can't sleep. I feel like a monster for not wanting to hug my child but I also just want to sleep.

What can I do?

Agree with others, this is really abnormal and off the scale. Suspect they have additional needs. You need to see the GP urgently.

This is not normal.

They need therapy to understand their anxiety.

Also look at their diet. Why aren't they sleeping through? Even if it's hard to get to sleep, few children wake multiple times themselves. Cut out ultra processed foods and all drinks except water. Fill them up on whole foods. Take a magnesium containing vitamin.

Plus no screens after 4pm.

Calm games, dinner, walk after dinner then chill time with jigsaws & reading.

Watch together the bluey episode sleepytime how Bingo aims to have a big girl sleep and repeat the mums mantra “I’m always here even if you can’t see me I’m always here”

Have you tried melatonin? White noise? Weighted blankets?
This sounds torturous for you OP.
If there are no additional needs or neuro-diversity then it is simply a habit that your children have got into. You need to set new expectations offer meaningful rewards for the behaviour you want and be consistent.
Good luck!

Op you have my sympathies. I think there is a place for firm boundaries and tough love but you need to rule out ND first. I’d take them to the GP as a starting point.

Good luck.

You must know this isn't normal. Have you taken them to the doctor for o see if there's anything going on? Otherwise you just need to stop pandering to it.

He could be masking at school. Ask your GP to have him assessed for ASD. Also, you could try having a rewards chart for going to the bathroom on his own. For the sleep issues, just keep putting them back their own beds. Just say, “it’s bedtime” and put them back. No hugs. No chats. They will soon learn it’s not worth the effort because you hugging them or giving them any attention is their current reward for waking you. Stop rewarding them. Put them back to their own bed and leave the room. It might take a few weeks but they will learn. Also, you could try things like lavender room spray, lavender bubble bath before bed, brown noise in the room for relaxation. Maybe you could ask them if they would like a new bed, (queen size) to sleep in together? That way they can feel close to each other during the night instead of sleeping in your room. Keep the single beds they have and after a while you can transition back to them sleeping separately - in their own rooms! Spend time in their room during the day so it’s a comfortable, safe place for them.

We have a dog but he's a massive hairy outdoorsy thing and never comes upstairs. He also snores heavily so would probably do more harm than good 😅

As a parent of an AHDH/ASD child, it takes years to get a diagnosis on the nhs. So, op needs to start a new routine now because she’s at breaking point now.

Thanks everyone for messages. I've spoken to school about it but they say all is fine, no concerns over ND.

To get started on the tough love, should I give them say a week's notice, or introduce it quickly so they have less time to get wound up about it? Of course in either case I'll make sure to have a good chat with them many of the points raised here.

Personally I would start by working on the daytime separation anxiety side of things. Until they are settled being alone during the day then they won’t settle at night.

Have you tried playing games like hide and seek? Just to reiterate the idea that even though your out of sight you will still always come back.

use sandtimers and say “I’m going to the kitchen. I will be back before the sand has gone through”

build that trust to feel safe during the day and that will make tackling the nights a bit easier.

Introduce it now. Say that tonight they must not wake mummy up. For every night they don't wake you, they get a sticker. Perhaps as others have suggested, a special toy or something that will provide comfort in the night. I used to hug a teddy for one of my more anxious dc and then say when they hugged it in the night, the hug would transfer.

I would take your younger dc to the gp just to check all is well - sounds like they could be masking at school.

You sound like a lovely mum, but you need to rest! Hope all goes well.

GP for your 5 year old as something is going on there but regardless you need to stop sleeping in their room. At their ages they can sleep alone.
They know you will give in and give cuddles if they persist but if you weren't there maybe they wouldn't bother. If they do get up and come to your room take them back to bed, even if it's 50 times.
Tell them today that you are not sleeping in their room but they can each have a special toy for bedtime but they need to stay in their beds and sleep.
I'm not sure if your 8 year old is copying the 5 year old or if they both need to see the GP., they both sound anxious and your 5 year old masking art school needs investigating.
Good luck bud please do try and get strict on everyone sleeping in their ow bed. Do your chicken wake your DH up? How does he respond?

Sorry OP but this is batshit. If they’ve not got SEN then just tell them it has to stop and hold firm with the boundaries, you are doing them no favours.

Are they back to school this week? I'd wait a couple of weeks until they're in the swing of it. Then chat to them during the week, let them pick out a sticker chart and glow clock and tell them you're starting on Friday night. Make it a positive thing, they're big boys/girls now.

But honestly OP, I'd be wary of the tough love route given your other post, it does sound like there's something more serious going on.

What's your gut - is it habit and preference, or are they really scared and anxious?

I think they might be genuinely scared. I remember the same thing when I was a kid, laying awake in my bed for hours every night scared stiff but knowing I wasn't allowed to bother my parents. But I grew out of it of course. That’s probably why I struggle to maintain boundaries with them.

I would get them some crystals and tell them they have magical properties. Amethyst -May help with nightmares and falling asleep. And I would get some rose quartz for protection. Remember to cleanse the crystals under running water before you give them to your kids. I did this for my nephews and it was really sweet, when there dad was struggling to sleep they gave him their amethyst to use. It's unlikely to get you out of their bedroom but it may empower them to have something they can't hold onto to protect them and help them sleep. Lavender essential oil is also good for sleep, my niece used this a lot when she was struggling.

I know a lot of people are saying boundaries but your children are scared, I think you are doing the right thing. I do suggest moving, different houses have different energy and maybe your house just freaks them out. I was a very fearful sleeper as a kid too, and I still appreciate that my mother would take care of me when I woke up frightened.

You can also start doing things like talking to them before bed and getting them to visualise a protective pink bubble around themselves. Samantha Fay in the USA makes a 'monsters be gone' spray https://samanthafey.com/product/scare-away-monster-spray/. Not sure if she ships to the UK but if not you could make your own, she lists what is in hers.

They've come to get me four times so far tonight. And that's before older child's main night waking (for a couple of hours between 2 and 5 am). And then I have to get up for work at 5.45am.

Oh forgot to say we stopped sleeping in their room on Fri night

Ooh that sounds hard OP. My eldest has been an awful sleeper her entire life. Only recently started consistently sleeping through recently at 4. I've always been very onboard with responsive parenting during the night, never left her to cry ever. As a baby we coslept because it was the only way to get any sleep, then I used to sleep in her room until 2 and then I'd end up in her room for first wake up

We had to lie in bed and cuddle her to sleep, then managed to move to sitting in a chair. Over this summer she's started going to sleep by herself something I never thought was possible. Basically what we did was very very small changes at a time and a hell of a lot of bribery. I have ignored some crying recently because it wasn't genuine.

I've started with magnesium supplements recently but this was after the improvement in her sleep so don't know if they worked

I have 2 suggestions - super nanny - silent return to bed as option 1 - so the first time they get up you can talk so you say it's time for bed and tuck them in - second time you say bedtime and tuck in - every time after that it's no speech and no eye contact - 45 times the first night but by 5th night no getting up for us! It got easier v quickly
Second option was a little older and we used a sticker chart and a toy they really wanted - we started off with 5 'get out of bed for free' tokens but it had to be for a hug or a pee or a drink ( you decide your rules) - if they used less than 5 tokens they got a sticker (when they are getting a sticker regularly then reduce it to 4/3/2/1 tokens etc )and you decide how many stickers to get the toy - we did seven so we could say 'if you are good at staying in bed for 1 week you will have this toy' we did this for a few months - and he collected Thomas Trains that we had already bought to give him but he earns them slowly - the one he was working towards was always on the mantelpiece for motivation! It worked as he was very rewards oriented