To expect better from nursery?

[dreamer24]

My little girl (age 3) came home from nursery today with heavily soiled knickers and had clearly either had an accident or not properly wiped after the toilet. She was so sore she cried when I cleaned her in the shower so I'm assuming it had been that way for a good few hours as it was quite dried on her bottom. I asked her whether she'd asked for help using the toilet and she said not, but what she tells me isn't always reliable because she's 3, so I don't know if she did or not. But for whatever reason, she's been left sitting in her own poo for some of the day. I could also smell it in the car so it would have presumably been evident to anyone near her.

I called the nursery to express my concerns and the person I spoke to was immediately defensive, saying "we can't go in the toilet every time with them, it's a 1:8 ratio". I replied that I wasn't expecting someone to go in "every time" but just for the staff to maybe support her a little more, ask if she needs help, or check she's wiped properly etc. she also said "maybe you could work with her at home too, tell her to ask for help from the staff". I said I have done exactly that this evening but that i haven't done it before this point it's not been a problem previously? I then spoke to the manager who was much more helpful and apologetic and said she would speak to the staff and ask them to put more support in place for her after the toilet etc.

I'm just wondering if I'm expecting too much? My daughter only just turned 3 a few months ago and whilst she's been potty trained since January, she does still need help with wiping properly after a poo. My friend whose little boy is the same age said she didn't think I was being unreasonable in expecting some support for my daughter with wiping after the toilet and that her 3 year old son would also need the same support.

I just feel so sad that my little girl was soiled and sore first at least part of the day, and is now very sore, it's really got to me. 😞 And the comments by the member of staff who I initially spoke with have annoyed me, surely the staffing ratio isn't my issue? I'm paying for my child to be cared for, and on a basic level surely this means a clean bottom?

I think your child should be cared for and looked after. On the one hand, I think parents need to ensure their child is properly toilet trained and able to seek help if they need it. Equally if you can smell poo on a child and you are responsible for looking after them, you need to check and clean them up.

Where I am children in the preschool room use the toilet independently once they are toilet trained so we do rely on them asking for help when they need it. If we know particular children find wiping hard then we keep a closer eye on them.

Now it's been discovered your child isn't managing well without a bit of help I'm sure the staff will watch her more carefully when she uses the toilet.

I always encourage them to have a try at wiping themselves first if they ask for help so perhaps this is something to try at home too if you don't already. Nursery is very different in that toilet breaks are inconvenient when they want to get back to playing!

She is fully toilet trained, but we still need to support her with wiping after a poo (she's fine with wees, albeit she unravels the loo roll all over the place like an Andrex puppy 😄), but with poos she still needs help. She's only just turned 3.

I used to work in a pre-school. We absolutely would help children who needed it with wiping bottoms. Yes we'd encourage independence, but lots of children need help, and certainly if a child was clearly dirty (could smell it) would help them to wash and change. Plenty of reception children need a bit of help with wiping.

No differnet to a care home at the other end of the age spectrum. Nobody really gives much of a fuck as staff are rushed off their feet.

I think that given she isn’t really fully trained yet since she can’t clean herself afterwards that you need to set the expectations with nursery and let them know they have to keep checking her.

Thanks for your replies. It seems it's a reasonable expectation then. It really did annoy me when the staff member referred to the ratios though. That isn't my issue as a paying parent, surely. My only concern is that my child is adequately cared for and if that isn't happening, perhaps they need to look at why.

Totally reasonable to need help with wiping, but I do understand how it might get missed if they didn’t know she’d been for a poo and hadn’t asked for help.

I get it, I really do (I get infuriated with nappy rash from nursery) but keep reinforcing to her that she needs to ask for help every time. I’m sure they’ll keep a closer eye now they’re aware though!

YANBU. I would expect better too.

If you could smell a poo on her, so would they.

I've worked in nurseries and with all the nappies being changed you can become a little nose blind. My daughter also came home in a similar state and they'd had no idea, I smelt it as soon as I picked her up. I have no reason to think they just deliberately left her in her own mess and it was a similar situation where she had been to the toilet and not asked for help.

These things happen in a busy room of children and she's at the awkward age where she's taking herself off independently but isn't fully independent. I spoke to DD and to nursery about making sure she had a bit of help to wipe and we never had another issue. Hopefully things will be just as easily resolved for the OP.

It is unfortunate your child is sore. But just unlucky. It was a messier than usual poo, she didnt manage to wipe correctly and it was a while before someone identified the smell.

I don't think mentioning the ratios is unreasonable as in a practical sense they cant routinely go to toilet with them. Good that now they know they will offer more support.

I think the point with the ratios is that they can't go and check on every child every time they use the toilet (as you might at home, or a childminder with fewer children might). They need to rely on either children asking for help, or knowing (from parents) which children aren't yet able to manage things themselves. Now that they know your daughter needs help, hopefully they will keep an eye, and you can also train her that if she does a poo she should ask for help.

I’d disagree that the ratio means the kids are unsupervised in the toilet. At my daughters nursery they are encouraged to tell a grown up they’re going to the toilet so someone is supervising as kids 3-5 will often wreak havoc if left unattended with water, soap and toilet paper! We’ve had a similar situation you’re describing OP and it’s upsetting when you realise they’re sore and have been sat in some poo all day. We have been working on my daughter asking a grown up for help when she needs it and wiping herself first.

I’d keep talking to nursery because her dignity and cleanliness is important

Mine went to/are at school nursery which is at 1:13 ratio since lead by a teacher, so there really isn’t support to take them all to the toilet and the older/more capable ones wouldn’t need it anyway. So it had to be said to the nursery ‘he still needs help with wiping’ and to him ‘tell the teacher if you need a poo’. If neither you or her communicated that then I’m not sure it’s nursery’s fault, even at 1:8 they still can’t follow every 3YO into the loo every single time. And maybe it didn’t smell immediately and I bet if they do nappies for the younger kids the staff are basically nose blind! So I wouldn’t hold it against them. But now they know she needs help I would hope that they definitely won’t let it happen again, and hopefully she knows to speak up next time too, bless her.

These things do happen at that age unfortunately, we've had it with both of ours. Staff will happily help if they ask or the staff realise they need it but sometimes they do slip by unnoticed as they do wees without help. As others have said, rooms full of small DC will smell of poo! So once it's happened they may not notice.

If your child still needs help then staff need to know this. Children access the toilets independently so the staff may not have even known she went for a poo. If staff know she needs help they can keep an eye on her but if they don’t know they don’t know, especially if they’ve been told she’s fully toilet trained.
As a PP had said too, you do get nose blind when you work in a nursery so genuinely may not have smelt it.

Out of interest is this a pre-school nursery (attached to the school) or a private one where she has been going since in nappies?

A friend has sent her son to a preschool and the staff have been terrible with toilet support and cite ratios as the reasoning.

It's not unreasonable for the staff to help her wipe her bottom.
I'm wondering if you have had a conversation with them about it prior to this incident though? Perhaps if she's been successfully independent they feel that when she goes she is fine and doesn't need help.
Of course encourage DD to ask for help but also I'd be checking in with her key worker for a note to be made available for all staff to check her and help her wipe in future. That's not too much to ask.

Nursery worker here!

That’s really not great ! You don’t get ‘nose blind’ poo is poo and that’s often the first sign for us that someone needs a change even though we check them regularly. I think now that it’s been communicated it should be good as they know she needs support but why are they allowed to go to the bathroom by themselves? That’s not 1:8 ratio because they are on their own. There should be someone at least standing at the door listening out if anyone needs help and if cover is needed due to ratios a manager needs to be asked to cover. I don’t think nurseries are doing so well since covid, but how oh how will they cope with more children due to funding?
Well done for calling, the manager sounds great but the worker sounds over worked and under pressure.

Private, and yes she was there from age 2 when still in nappies too.

Rightly or wrongly I don’t think my 3 year old would have a clue how to wipe his own bum.

YANBU.

Of course you’re not BU. My little boy in reception doesn’t always wipe his bottom properly so I am not surprised your 3 year old can’t. Some 3 years olds aren’t even potty trained and the staff manage to change them so it’s rubbish they can’t dedicate the time to help them wipe!

@dreamer24

If this is the first issue you've had since January, I think you're criticising the nursery unfairly.

Yes my son’s school nursery insists they are toilet trained and won’t accept children who are in nappies. That said, they do ask if they need support. My son has been trained for a good 10 months, has just turned 3, but I know nursery still help wipe for a no.2.

It isn't. There was another issue that I had to raise a complaint about a few months back, not related to toileting.