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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that we need to have an honest conversation about euthanasia and care costs

722 replies

Noras · 18/08/2024 17:41

So there are some interesting stats published by the Gov about the cost of cares the end of life and whatever way you look at it, it’s expensive. Obviously the most expensive is hospital care at about £400 to £500 per day but also care in care homes is high.Most of that could be avoided with an injection.

I have watched both my parents die and I have been left traumatised by it. My mother died from starving to death due to dementia in a non nursing bed with no pay relief other than paracetamol. She was clutching the sheets and morning for 14 days. My father died of the most gruesome cancer. We nursed him at home but we still had one 24 hour carer at the end paid for by CHC ( he was plus 2 for eg the commode and washing hence we still did it).

Whilst my parents were dying I could not bear to let them go but now after several years I think ‘What on Earth was that?’ With the benefit of hindsight I regret every mouthful of food that I fed my mother. She did not even know who I was and was in a different World but yet she was my beautiful mother.

I regret every time that I carefully measured morphine for my dad because I did not want to give him an overdose

I am haunted by the prospect of getting dementia. I am scared sick of cancer and dying from it as the pain meds never kept uo with the pain. When we just had the pain patches they were always too weak and we were always behind the race to keep up with the pain. When we got the end of life kit, as a relative I was always too scared to give ( I think ) enough morphine to top up the pain patches so my dad would he in agony. I could not bear to let my dad go - it was so painful,

So this is the question; Do we need to grow up and really think about euthanasia?

Over two years of my life were consumed by the impending death of my parents ( I still visited and cared for my mum in a care home despite it costing my dad several hundred pounds weekly as I wanted to care for her).

OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
ATenShun · 19/08/2024 15:55

Lizzie67384 · 19/08/2024 15:45

Well you sound absolutely crazy.

Rude, but you are entitled to your opinion.

I suspect if you asked any number of pet owners in particular dogs, they will say the same thing as me.

Starlingexpress · 19/08/2024 15:55

Lizzie67384 · 19/08/2024 15:52

I don’t think costs should enter the equation at all though - as soon as costs are involved you’re essentially saying, well this person is old, in my opinion has poor quality of life, so let’s end his/her life to save on costs

Comes back to the question of resources though. We have finite resources on a personal and societal level. We need decisions to be made. If I struggle to pay my mum’s care home fees can I not have the right to end her ( in my opinion) wretched existence? And if I don’t want to make that decision, surely I should be able to outsource it ?

Lizzie67384 · 19/08/2024 15:57

ATenShun · 19/08/2024 15:55

Rude, but you are entitled to your opinion.

I suspect if you asked any number of pet owners in particular dogs, they will say the same thing as me.

Well why didn’t you take your dog to the vet and have it ‘communicate’ it wanted to die directly to the vet?

Needanewname42 · 19/08/2024 15:57

Lizzie67384 · 19/08/2024 15:13

What! So what if that person has no close family or friends or trusted anyone to make that decision for them - who gets appointed then? Their local MP?

It’s not ‘exactly the same as a pet dog’ because quite clearly a pet dog is not as important as a person.

Maybe it should be a court application for everyone with dementia because it's not a black and white point when someone's quality of life goes. And they obviously don't have the capacity to know what life or death means.

The only people who benefit from late stages of dementia patients living is the care home owners and their bank balance.

Herecomethesunnydaze · 19/08/2024 15:59

Is everybody in a nursing home miserable and suffering?

From what I have seen the vast majority are. The threshold for going into a nursing home is now very high needs. A residential home less so.
I understand the complexities, for myself I would prefer assisted dying but I can see how it could be exploited.
There does need to be a debate.

Lizzie67384 · 19/08/2024 15:59

Starlingexpress · 19/08/2024 15:55

Comes back to the question of resources though. We have finite resources on a personal and societal level. We need decisions to be made. If I struggle to pay my mum’s care home fees can I not have the right to end her ( in my opinion) wretched existence? And if I don’t want to make that decision, surely I should be able to outsource it ?

Because the fact that you struggle to pay care home fees would or could influence your decision on whether to end her life?

For example, woman has £1million estate, she is in a care home, son is struggling for money, son decides mum should go down the route of assisted dying - is this to access the money from the estate? Was he influenced by this? Or did he genuinely make the decision in her best interests?

Lizzie67384 · 19/08/2024 16:01

Needanewname42 · 19/08/2024 15:57

Maybe it should be a court application for everyone with dementia because it's not a black and white point when someone's quality of life goes. And they obviously don't have the capacity to know what life or death means.

The only people who benefit from late stages of dementia patients living is the care home owners and their bank balance.

But then it’s still capable of being manipulated - someone gets dementia, court application made (by who??), presumably gets granted - family benefit from estate / govt benefits from not having to pay for healthcare

ATenShun · 19/08/2024 16:04

Lizzie67384 · 19/08/2024 15:57

Well why didn’t you take your dog to the vet and have it ‘communicate’ it wanted to die directly to the vet?

In his own way he did. Do you think a vet just euthanises a dog on the say so of the owner. They too assess the dog. In my dogs case as in most he had been in for treatment on the run up to his death. He had attended the same vet for annual boosters etc, so they could tell even from their records how downhill he had gone, especially in a short period of time.

I don't know if you have or had a dog. But my experience and that of a great many other dog owners, is that your pet does communicate with you. Just on a level that some people don't understand.

urbanbuddha · 19/08/2024 16:06

The only people who benefit from late stages of dementia patients living is the care home owners and their bank balance.

Agree.

Lizzie67384 · 19/08/2024 16:06

ATenShun · 19/08/2024 16:04

In his own way he did. Do you think a vet just euthanises a dog on the say so of the owner. They too assess the dog. In my dogs case as in most he had been in for treatment on the run up to his death. He had attended the same vet for annual boosters etc, so they could tell even from their records how downhill he had gone, especially in a short period of time.

I don't know if you have or had a dog. But my experience and that of a great many other dog owners, is that your pet does communicate with you. Just on a level that some people don't understand.

Yes I do have a dog, but I don’t believe she is my soulmate or that she could communicate whether she wanted to die to me or not. I love my dog but understand that she is not a person!

wellno · 19/08/2024 16:07

I would be quite happy to be bumped off 'early' by unscrupulous relatives if it meant I could avoid years of pain. Let them have my money!

I am massively, massively in favour of assisted dying.

ATenShun · 19/08/2024 16:12

Lizzie67384 · 19/08/2024 16:06

Yes I do have a dog, but I don’t believe she is my soulmate or that she could communicate whether she wanted to die to me or not. I love my dog but understand that she is not a person!

That is of course your right. It doesn't make my relationship with my dog 'crazy' as you put it.

After all, you wouldn't stand outside your local church on a Sunday and tell the parrishioners they were crazy for praying to something that has no proof of existence.

Needanewname42 · 19/08/2024 16:13

Lizzie67384 · 19/08/2024 16:01

But then it’s still capable of being manipulated - someone gets dementia, court application made (by who??), presumably gets granted - family benefit from estate / govt benefits from not having to pay for healthcare

My Granny didn't have an estate to leave, fees were paid by the council. But it was no way to live. Her soul died 2-3 years before he body.

I guess if there is no family or friends it could be the doctors the care team who'd make the application. Or the same team of people who decided the person needed 24hr care in the first place.

ClareBlue · 19/08/2024 16:13

We've developed medical intervention that keeps people alive beyond our natural capacity to be alive so now face diseases and conditions as a consequence of this. Maybe it's about not doing everything to prolong life as aposed to actively ending life.
But dont be under any illusion that we make financial decisions all the time that result in premature death for certain sectors of our communities, be it from accepting poor housing to accessing medical facilities and numerous other decisions we make. So maybe elderly care costs are a valid reason to permit these decisions. Is that any worse than saying it's too costly to provide decent housing, air quality or everyone accessing primary health care when you need it.

Lizzie67384 · 19/08/2024 16:14

Needanewname42 · 19/08/2024 16:13

My Granny didn't have an estate to leave, fees were paid by the council. But it was no way to live. Her soul died 2-3 years before he body.

I guess if there is no family or friends it could be the doctors the care team who'd make the application. Or the same team of people who decided the person needed 24hr care in the first place.

But then it would still be open to misuse by the govt who would want save on costs - you only have to look at Canada to see what a slippery slope this is

PinkSparklyPussyCat · 19/08/2024 16:18

ATenShun · 19/08/2024 16:12

That is of course your right. It doesn't make my relationship with my dog 'crazy' as you put it.

After all, you wouldn't stand outside your local church on a Sunday and tell the parrishioners they were crazy for praying to something that has no proof of existence.

I understand what you mean. When we made the decision to have our cat PTS last year I knew it was his time by looking at him. It's not crazy at all.

ClareBlue · 19/08/2024 16:19

The breakdown in trust between people and our governments and professionals makes this even harder to debate. Literally everyone who talks about governance on this thread has stated they wouldn't trust our government not to manipulate the situation. The government who is meant to govern society is seen as the biggest threat. That's a problem.

ForeverDelayedEpiphany · 19/08/2024 16:24

Honestly, (and I say this now but it might be different if it was really reality and not a theoretical situation... ), if either of my DP were invalid and incapacitated to the point whereby they have to sell their home to pay for their care, I wouldn't sit there thinking "There goes my inheritance"..! 😳😕 They enjoyed the fruits of their labours, with very good successful careers, and I would want the best possible way to care for them.

But equally, as they are both extremely active and compos mentis now, if I could save them the absolute agony of a dreadful slow decline to a living demise, of course I'd rather they didn't suffer at all. I'd never want to watch the wonderful people I love the most become shells of themselves. It'd be so heartbreaking 💔

SummerSplashing · 19/08/2024 16:49

helpfulperson · 18/08/2024 17:59

What about all the young people who live in similar situations - no awareness of the outside world or quality of life? are we going to Euthanise those as well. Or stop all the efforts to keep very premature babies alive, which lead often to a requirement for lifelong very expensive care. It's a slippery slope and I'm not sure I trust us not to abuse it.

@helpfulperson

i agree with you entirely.

@Noras

im dreadfully sorry for what you went through with both your parents. It's heart breaking. I'm very sorry you have regrets, that's hard to live with. I'm sorry your Fad didn't have adequate care & pain relief.

However, I take issue on 2 counts. I don't think cost should come into it at all and your comment that money could be saved by using an injection I find abhorrent.

i want to phrase this sensitively, but can't find better words, but it's coming across as somewhat selfish to deny others what you had, even if you now wish you hadn't. Imagine when your parents first got ill someone had just said 'ah they're old, let's just euthanise them'. How would you have felt then?! Not now in hindsight, but then??

In general I support assisted dying with strict guidelines, but it scares me how much we could fuck this up.

my mum lives overseas & im glad they don't have assisted dying there, she'd definitely sign
up for it if she needed paid for care, so golden boy doesn't 'lose' any of his inheritance.

i don't support Euthanasia because I fear people being apts 'to save their inheritance' while the person still has 'some quality of life'

Cartwrightandson · 19/08/2024 17:07

I want the right to end my life with dignity...I really hope it's an option when and if the time comes. The ability to take control, and end my life just before things deteriorate

I suggest you all watch

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b070jm26

BBC Two - How to Die: Simon's Choice

Simon debates whether to end his life after being diagnosed with motor neurone disease.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b070jm26

Machiavellian · 19/08/2024 17:09

Haven't read the full thread but in my opinion this shouldn't even be a debate. Humans deserve to end their lives as they choose. I hope we can die in peace and dignity when the time comes. I don't want to waste and ebb away.

SummerSplashing · 19/08/2024 17:20

Allie47 · 18/08/2024 18:21

My mum was a palliative care nurse. She often told me there's a good way to die and a bad way and you want to do whatever you can to avoid the bad way 💐 I feel so bad for her that after supporting so many people in the their final hours, she died herself in a bad way, and she knew what was happening too. It will always haunt me.

@Allie47

I am so so sorry about your mum ❤️

Starlingexpress · 19/08/2024 17:22

Machiavellian · 19/08/2024 17:09

Haven't read the full thread but in my opinion this shouldn't even be a debate. Humans deserve to end their lives as they choose. I hope we can die in peace and dignity when the time comes. I don't want to waste and ebb away.

It’s clearly not a debate unless you are prepared to read/counter and consider the opinions of others….

Machiavellian · 19/08/2024 17:35

Why should it be a debate? Surely we're entitled to make our own choices?

notbelieved · 19/08/2024 17:39

However VAD is not available in cases of advanced dementia for the simple reason that the person cannot give informed consent. I honestly cannot see any way around that

I think we could allow mature adults of sound mindvto write 'euthanasia if I get dementia' into some kind of wishes/living will document. Counselling of some kind of approved nature would have to be undertaken. Could only be done prior to getting sick - say in your late 40s/early 50s when you've had enough life experience to know what you want. People could also write a 'keep me alive at all costs' wishes/will if that's how they feel to avoid family pressures when the time comes.

But the disability aspect of this is worrying in terms of where does it end.