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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that we need to have an honest conversation about euthanasia and care costs

722 replies

Noras · 18/08/2024 17:41

So there are some interesting stats published by the Gov about the cost of cares the end of life and whatever way you look at it, it’s expensive. Obviously the most expensive is hospital care at about £400 to £500 per day but also care in care homes is high.Most of that could be avoided with an injection.

I have watched both my parents die and I have been left traumatised by it. My mother died from starving to death due to dementia in a non nursing bed with no pay relief other than paracetamol. She was clutching the sheets and morning for 14 days. My father died of the most gruesome cancer. We nursed him at home but we still had one 24 hour carer at the end paid for by CHC ( he was plus 2 for eg the commode and washing hence we still did it).

Whilst my parents were dying I could not bear to let them go but now after several years I think ‘What on Earth was that?’ With the benefit of hindsight I regret every mouthful of food that I fed my mother. She did not even know who I was and was in a different World but yet she was my beautiful mother.

I regret every time that I carefully measured morphine for my dad because I did not want to give him an overdose

I am haunted by the prospect of getting dementia. I am scared sick of cancer and dying from it as the pain meds never kept uo with the pain. When we just had the pain patches they were always too weak and we were always behind the race to keep up with the pain. When we got the end of life kit, as a relative I was always too scared to give ( I think ) enough morphine to top up the pain patches so my dad would he in agony. I could not bear to let my dad go - it was so painful,

So this is the question; Do we need to grow up and really think about euthanasia?

Over two years of my life were consumed by the impending death of my parents ( I still visited and cared for my mum in a care home despite it costing my dad several hundred pounds weekly as I wanted to care for her).

OP posts:
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Lizzie67384 · 19/08/2024 11:39

Bumpitybumper · 19/08/2024 08:47

Rwanda is a red herring!

The amount of money we would need to give our aging and unhealthy population optimal healthcare is completely unaffordable even if all public money was devoted to this. You are completely downplaying the scale of the issue. Rwanda would be a mere drop in the ocean. If you have ever had to fund a week in a nursing home then you would know this!

So what you’re suggesting is that when people get to a certain age, they don’t qualify for care?

EatCrow · 19/08/2024 11:43

Hatty65 · 18/08/2024 17:57

Having watched my MIL spend over a decade with Alzheimer's in a care home I would agree. I do not want to live like that, and would choose death. She was 96 when she finally died and was blind, non verbal and doubly incontinent. I wouldnt keep an animal like that.

It’s inexplicable isn’t it. I seriously question why this torture is allowed for humans when a pet can have a peaceful death.

Plantparent · 19/08/2024 11:47

Starlingexpress · 19/08/2024 09:52

You can self administer your morphine.

Administering drugs to somebody else is a whole other procedural process.

This is true, I don't think nurses in a clinical setting would risk their registration by overdosing a patient on a controlled drug, even on a syringe driver it will be set to an hourly rate that needs to be documented. All controlled drugs are counted by two nurses and it is a serious matter if any are missing

EatCrow · 19/08/2024 11:48

Gettingbysomehow · 19/08/2024 11:35

I've been qualified as a nurse for 45 years and I am absolutely furious that I have no say in how I want to end my life. I absolutely do not want to end up in a care home. I want euthanasia when I want it.
It's so backwards that we can give our pets a wonderful death to end suffering but not ourselves and the reasons against it are just not good enough.
I'm still working so I'm busy saving up the 20k plus it will cost me to go to Dignitas. but lots of people cannot afford that.
I have a do not resuscitate plan in place already but that isn't enough in my opinion.

It’s very arduous to actually follow the dignitas route, particularly if someone is already ill and alone. Practically impossible for anyone with severe mental health problems.

Gogogo12345 · 19/08/2024 11:54

MorrisZapp · 19/08/2024 11:34

I don't want euthanasia to be for anyone other than myself, should that need arise. I don't want other people of any age euthanised without their express, clear and multiply witnessed personal demand.

This exactly

Remaker · 19/08/2024 11:54

I live in Australia where we now have voluntary assisted dying. It’s quite new legislation and I only know one person so far who has utilised it who was a friend’s elderly relative who had Parkinson’s Disease.

However VAD is not available in cases of advanced dementia for the simple reason that the person cannot give informed consent. I honestly cannot see any way around that. And the main reason is right there in your post title when you mention cost. Otherwise decent people can do terrible things for money and we shouldn’t be killing people off because they become expensive to care for.

Noras · 19/08/2024 12:02

YellowAsteroid · 19/08/2024 11:31

All of you happily advocating for euthanasia for the old - I guess you're all quite young & inexperienced? Come back with more measured thoughts when you're 60.

I’m in my 60th year and had a mum with frontal temporal lobe dementia - quite pertinent for me now thanks.

OP posts:
Noras · 19/08/2024 12:14

I had an uncle who had several strokes and TIA, a mum who had frontal temporal and mixed vascular dementia, a brother who recently had a TIA and I’m almost 60. Im also a carer and will have to keep caring for as long as possible and can’t just pop off and kill myself.

I want to know that if I sign anything now I won’t be left to languish in a care home with incontinence, fear, confusion costing my family £1500 per week etc. Where are my human rights to avoid this? If ever I get dementia I want to go before needing to when it is at the advanced stage as defined by some DSM guideline.

Can’t we do it on a person by person basis?

OP posts:
newleafontheplantjohn · 19/08/2024 12:31

Yes, I fully agree.

I've been with pet cats and dogs when they are put to sleep, surrounded by family, before their quality of life has gone / before the pain gets too bad, and I can never understand why people aren't afforded the same dignity.

Lizzie67384 · 19/08/2024 12:32

newleafontheplantjohn · 19/08/2024 12:31

Yes, I fully agree.

I've been with pet cats and dogs when they are put to sleep, surrounded by family, before their quality of life has gone / before the pain gets too bad, and I can never understand why people aren't afforded the same dignity.

Well, I hate to break it to you but cats and dogs are very different to people. I don’t know why people use this argument; the owner decides on behalf of the cat or dog, obviously, because animals don’t have any capacity to express their wishes either way.

EatCrow · 19/08/2024 12:37

Lizzie67384 · 19/08/2024 12:32

Well, I hate to break it to you but cats and dogs are very different to people. I don’t know why people use this argument; the owner decides on behalf of the cat or dog, obviously, because animals don’t have any capacity to express their wishes either way.

The point is many people would like the chance to advocate for themselves.

Lizzie67384 · 19/08/2024 12:40

EatCrow · 19/08/2024 12:37

The point is many people would like the chance to advocate for themselves.

I’m not disagreeing with this but clearly it is very open to misuse and manipulation; cats and dogs are put down so easily/quickly because their lives are not as important as humans and their owners have absolute say over what happens to them.

Starlingexpress · 19/08/2024 12:42

EatCrow · 19/08/2024 12:37

The point is many people would like the chance to advocate for themselves.

The point is animals never have or never will be capable of advocating for themselves, making decisions and giving consent.

Ergo zero relevance in this context.

ForeverDelayedEpiphany · 19/08/2024 12:52

Lizzie67384 · 19/08/2024 12:40

I’m not disagreeing with this but clearly it is very open to misuse and manipulation; cats and dogs are put down so easily/quickly because their lives are not as important as humans and their owners have absolute say over what happens to them.

Careful saying that their lives aren't as important... you'll get a lot of people who disagree with you 😳😑😕

Lizzie67384 · 19/08/2024 12:53

ForeverDelayedEpiphany · 19/08/2024 12:52

Careful saying that their lives aren't as important... you'll get a lot of people who disagree with you 😳😑😕

🤣🤣 I thought that as I wrote it!

ForeverDelayedEpiphany · 19/08/2024 12:56

Noras · 19/08/2024 12:14

I had an uncle who had several strokes and TIA, a mum who had frontal temporal and mixed vascular dementia, a brother who recently had a TIA and I’m almost 60. Im also a carer and will have to keep caring for as long as possible and can’t just pop off and kill myself.

I want to know that if I sign anything now I won’t be left to languish in a care home with incontinence, fear, confusion costing my family £1500 per week etc. Where are my human rights to avoid this? If ever I get dementia I want to go before needing to when it is at the advanced stage as defined by some DSM guideline.

Can’t we do it on a person by person basis?

Languishing in a care home with dementia I'd have to be dragged kicking and screaming to... I agree there are better ways to go. I'm not that old (43) but the thought of being sick and spending years against my will somehow having a "life" (aka just existing) makes my blood run cold.

My DM has given me explicit instructions to push her off a local Norfolk cliff if she ever gets to this stage..I think it would be understandable and if I can help relieve her suffering, I will.

Needanewname42 · 19/08/2024 13:08

I don't know how people can put dementia and babies born early because of pre-eclampsia in the same category.

Dementia is a terminal illness, zero chance of recovery. Your best hope is something else killing you before dementia does.
It's not just mixing up people's names, or where you put your handbag.

It's not knowing you ever had children. It's forgetting your parents died decades ago. It's your husband being a stranger. Forgetting how to put one foot in front of the other. Forgetting how pull pants down to use a toilet. And the good days and bad days, then the good days become fewer and fewer. The bad days get worse.

Slowly bit by bit it strips people of what makes them, them, their smile, their humour, their song, until they can no longer walk or talk or get anything out of life.

MorrisZapp · 19/08/2024 13:13

I'm 53, my four parents (including two steps) are all late 70s, one with advancing dementia.

My folks have great quality of life, but my stepmother with dementia regularly cries to my dad that she just wants to die. She can't really be cared for by others as she's had my dad as her carer for so long (other health issues) she would find it terrifying. What can you do? You can't predict the outcome but my dad will run himself dead before he allows her to go into a care home, as so many devoted spouses do.

I don't know about her DNR status but she was a nurse in her working life and extremely no nonsense around end of life issues.

She's beyond the point of consent now as far as assisted dying goes as she can't reliably express herself. She can cry like a frightened child though and it's just heart breaking. She does have quality moments such as listening to the radio or taking walks with my dad, she's not end of life just now but it's a bit like watching a juggernaut coming relentlessly towards you.

EatCrow · 19/08/2024 13:19

Starlingexpress · 19/08/2024 12:42

The point is animals never have or never will be capable of advocating for themselves, making decisions and giving consent.

Ergo zero relevance in this context.

I understand that and the reason I mention animals is because there is a peaceful way to die and I feel desperate that humans don’t get that choice. Personally, I want that peaceful pill for such a time when I’m ready to take it. I really want that choice.

Prenelope · 19/08/2024 13:21

EatCrow · 19/08/2024 13:19

I understand that and the reason I mention animals is because there is a peaceful way to die and I feel desperate that humans don’t get that choice. Personally, I want that peaceful pill for such a time when I’m ready to take it. I really want that choice.

I've seen two dogs, a cat and a horse put to sleep by injection and there is always a really horrible bit just before they go under. It's never been completely peaceful tbh.

Lizzie67384 · 19/08/2024 13:24

Prenelope · 19/08/2024 13:21

I've seen two dogs, a cat and a horse put to sleep by injection and there is always a really horrible bit just before they go under. It's never been completely peaceful tbh.

Also you just can’t compare a human dying to a cat or a dog; yeah it might be peaceful because they’d have no idea what was happening to them? Or it might be painful/stressful but you’d never know because they’d never be able to tell you

Starlingexpress · 19/08/2024 13:26

‘I don't know how people can put dementia and babies born early because of pre-eclampsia in the same category’

Capacity, vulnerability, value judgements, quality of life indicators and measurements, informed consent. THOSE are some of the reasons why the slippery slope argument is used.

ND adults and people with depression were not referenced in the initial legislation in Canada. Yet here they are….

ForeverDelayedEpiphany · 19/08/2024 13:27

EatCrow · 19/08/2024 13:19

I understand that and the reason I mention animals is because there is a peaceful way to die and I feel desperate that humans don’t get that choice. Personally, I want that peaceful pill for such a time when I’m ready to take it. I really want that choice.

To be fair, I think the drugs that they use to help euthanasia aren't without side effects and feeling bad physically, but obviously they will affect everyone differently as with any medication.

EatCrow · 19/08/2024 13:28

Prenelope · 19/08/2024 13:21

I've seen two dogs, a cat and a horse put to sleep by injection and there is always a really horrible bit just before they go under. It's never been completely peaceful tbh.

I believe it still has to be better than the alternative. (I’m speaking from a personal viewpoint here, not for another people).

AllPrincessAnneshorses · 19/08/2024 13:30

About euthanasia on the grounds of human suffering, yes.

Tying an opening salvo to care costs? Absolutely not. There is quite enough risk of older people being pressured into not costing too much already.

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