To think that we need to have an honest conversation about euthanasia and care costs

[Noras]

So there are some interesting stats published by the Gov about the cost of cares the end of life and whatever way you look at it, it’s expensive. Obviously the most expensive is hospital care at about £400 to £500 per day but also care in care homes is high.Most of that could be avoided with an injection.

I have watched both my parents die and I have been left traumatised by it. My mother died from starving to death due to dementia in a non nursing bed with no pay relief other than paracetamol. She was clutching the sheets and morning for 14 days. My father died of the most gruesome cancer. We nursed him at home but we still had one 24 hour carer at the end paid for by CHC ( he was plus 2 for eg the commode and washing hence we still did it).

Whilst my parents were dying I could not bear to let them go but now after several years I think ‘What on Earth was that?’ With the benefit of hindsight I regret every mouthful of food that I fed my mother. She did not even know who I was and was in a different World but yet she was my beautiful mother.

I regret every time that I carefully measured morphine for my dad because I did not want to give him an overdose

I am haunted by the prospect of getting dementia. I am scared sick of cancer and dying from it as the pain meds never kept uo with the pain. When we just had the pain patches they were always too weak and we were always behind the race to keep up with the pain. When we got the end of life kit, as a relative I was always too scared to give ( I think ) enough morphine to top up the pain patches so my dad would he in agony. I could not bear to let my dad go - it was so painful,

So this is the question; Do we need to grow up and really think about euthanasia?

Over two years of my life were consumed by the impending death of my parents ( I still visited and cared for my mum in a care home despite it costing my dad several hundred pounds weekly as I wanted to care for her).

No, their families would euthanasise them rather see their inheritance go.

I really am in favour of this and think far too much of the burden lays on the relative. My BILs dad was recently on life support and I was beyond shocked at how much of the decision lay at the hands of relatives who had 0 medical knowledge and had to watch him suffer. I had no clue life support was so crap.

However, none of what you've said justifies it. End of life care funding as well as SEN funding and attitudes should never EVER be a reason for someone to consider euthanasia or a reason to legalise it. That is a hill I will die on. The countries that have it legalised have far better funding for SEN and end of life care so it's not like it's impossible.

Totally agree with you OP

No

I’m saying we need to have a debate

I’m also saying that given my family history there is a real possibility I could get vascular dementia and frankly I personally want to have control and leave more money to my SEN son.

Ah I see your point! Indeed, I’m sure there would be lots of undue pressure

I was with my mother when she died of cancer. It was awful and she suffered weeks of intolerable agony before she went.

The very thought of even beginning to consider the financial aspect or the costs of caring for terminally ill people, or for that to have a bearing on whether or not they are euthanised to save money fills me with absolute horror.

I've said for a long time that those in the care sector should be paid considerably higher. Their skills are very much in demand, and should command a wage commiserate to the lack of them in the workforce.

But as you say this needs to be paid for. That means either much higher taxation or more of us taking on care responsibilities personally.

Another option is to let people make pre-emptive decisions about what they want happening should they suffer an incident, where life limiting or life quality with no chance of improvement occurs. Thus freeing up carers for the many other people requiring care.

But you literally said the money that it costs the state would fund more teachers?

I've done an advanced directive and also included brain injury in it as well as Parkinsons, dementia etc
My ex was hit by a car fairly recently, is now missing half his skull and will never live independently again
No life prolonging treatment, no CPR

I watched my beautiful, kind, funny mum die miserably inch by inch for 7 years. If euthanasia isn't available, I fully intend to end things myself if I feel my life is effectively over.
There are far worse things than death.

And who makes the decision when, you are categorised as a stage 6 dementia, but you appear quite content, spend your day singing nursery songs and cradling a baby doll that you believed was your baby, were cared for by gentle and well trained staff who managed your continence and personal hygiene issues with dignity and respect?

And yet your son, watching the equity of your home being swallowed up in care home fees announces that ‘now is the time’ for euthanasia. Talk me through how you envisage that process? Which of those staff that you have grown to trust will be the one to hold you down whilst you are injected?

Yes but I said we need to have a debate.

i never expressed any conclusion.

My own conclusion for myself is that I want to die easily and without much pain and not in a prolonged way and as things stand I am denied that and could cost my family money. That seems unjust to me.

I'm in agreement with euthanasia but it has to be a decision made when your of sound mind so for me a living will that should I get a terminal illness with no quality of live then I wish to pass with dignity and no strain on my family.
My grandad was placed on the Liverpool path when he was dying of cancer or was in humane and painful for him but in essence an "assisted death" why make it painful why starve him just assist him with dignity.

On your 50th birthday, make it a requirement to complete an end of life contract. Those that want to go at a time of their choosing or under their own criteria, can. Those that don’t want to, don’t have to. For anyone unable to make the decision for themselves then it should default to maintaining the status quo. You would obviously be allowed to change your decision while you had capacity.

I suffer from a number of MH conditions and I’m currently progressing an application with a Swiss Clinic. I should be able to die in my own country, with friends and family around me, but that is being denied to me. I have an advanced directive in place - but I basically have to already be dying imminently before it would make a difference.

I’ve exhausted all NHS options for treatment, so I’m just expected to live in absolute mental anguish for the rest of my natural life. No thanks. Ending your own life is a human right.

The word euthanasia comes from greek and means ‘a good death’. We all deserve a good death.

And this is something that EVERYBODY should do. But it’s amazing how many people don’t.

It would not be the son because most kids if they are normal actually would never want their parents life to end. The World is not full of all these evil monsters. Just watch people looking after their aged parents and making sure they don’t slip or fall or making sure they are in their best clothes etc. Human nature is not evil like that.

Flipping heck, I was making sure that my dad had vases full of flowers and me and my s in law rushed off to sort out a Xmas tree with decorations for him. Our whole lives were taken with taking him ( before he started slipping sideways ) to places to keep him happy. People actually love their parents believe it or not. They are cherished but the pain of watching them suffer combined with what is a bloody scene is horrendous,

I suspect the peaceful scene you describe is the exception rather than the rule. What about the nights screaming when you have forgotten where you are. The days getting aggressive and hurting yourself and others out of fear. The time where you have forgotten how to swallow.

It is obviously not black and white and something we should discuss with our loved ones and have the legal right to do.

That’s not what you actually said though - you were talking about older people costing the state money, which could be used to fund over state services?

The LCP was NEVER supposed to be about starving people to death and is actually an interesting example of how modern society cannot legislate for human behaviours and medical decision making and actually feeds really well into the worries about the slippery slope argument.

The LCP was designed to simplify the recognition and diagnosis of natural dying, and allow people in ALL care settings ( home/hospice/hospital/care homes) to be recognised as dying and given appropriate care and management of their symptoms.

The criteria around good and fluids stemmed from the recognition that people who were dying no longer wanted or needed nutrition and tastes for comfort/oral hygiene etc should be introduced once that person was confirmed as being in the last days of life.

Bit someone does have to do that for a living. There has been a huge push for deaths at home partly because it’s wanted but also it’s cheaper. The result is more horrified relatives have to pack bleeding tumours and emptying catheters etc, It would be naive to not realise that large accountancy firms tot up this stuff.

It was quite scary and upsetting for me to read the report and it was not long after my mother’s death with no proper pain relief.

I think that just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should. The medical profession seems to do everything they can to keep you alive, even in circumstances where it would be better that they didn't.

It seems to me that kindness has gone out of nursing/doctoring. Not that long ago, people were allowed to die with dignity. Their lives were not unnecessarily prolonged, they were kept out of pain but were able to die when nature intended.

I'm not sure where I sit on euthanasia. You absolutely would not allow an animal to be left in the state that we leave people, however people being people they are bound to abuse the situation and I don't know how you could prevent that from happening.

The thing is @ATenShun is that once you normalise euthanasia over care then the care that is needed to give people dignified and pain free end of life care suddenly becomes even less available - it becomes no true choice because the bean counters won't ever think caring for the elderly is worth it

And that’s the point. You can’t apply criteria or categories. So WHO makes the decisions based on what?

You come across as naive. Some people don't bother with their parents at all and given the chance would euthanasise them and collect their inheritance.

You're also naive in thinking that medical staff wouldn't simply choose to save money and time on a patient. It's also naive to think that this would only encompass the terminally ill and wouldn't soon apply to other medical issues as well as the suicidal.

Yet another reminder that you CAN control this without any 'euthanasia' laws.

You can make an Advance Decision (also called an ADRT or Living Will).

If you haven't done this, yet get the diagnosis you fear, you can bump yourself off.

What you CAN'T legally do is have someone else killed or do it yourself. And that's as it should be.