Can’t just be me who is sick of the moaning about the private school VAT and winter fuel payments

[TruthorDie]

The moaning about them seems to be never ending. So tone death and indulgent on both counts. Not sure which is worse. A friends mum was ranting on social media earlier about winter fuel payments being stopped and how “worried about being cold” she was. Bad news is Lynn you haven’t needed to work since 1989, married to an oil exec and have had lots of the good life. I’m sure all of your Florida holidays keep you warm enough!

Bright children can get on anywhere, my siblings and l went to a comprehensive. We all have a couple of degrees, one of us has a PhD so it didn’t hold us back too much in life. Before anyone comes at it from the neurodiversity angle then l am and l wouldn’t be surprised if my younger sibling isn’t

She has some savings which she got by downsizing her house. It's not a huge amount. The limit for pension credits is £10k so really not much if that is subsidising your income for many years.

Really? You need to go through a benefits calculator with her, owning her home wont stop her claiming Pension Credits.

The previous Govt allowed energy prices to rocket and have frozen tax thresholds for many years.

£10 a month private pension isn't going to put your mum into the basic rate income tax bracket.

Just as £200 towards energy prices isn't going to make much difference either, what would do is to reduce energy prices for average users and for people who use lots for optional items, should pay more per unit, other countries do this to aid the less well off, why can't we?

Re pensions - an interesting piece on Sky News this morning - 880,000 households apparently yet to claim the (new) WFA, to which they're entitled.

https://news.sky.com/story/money-blog-news-latest-consumer-skynews-13040934

iwishihadknownmore
Your idea has merit in terms of lower rates and then higher rates

But £200 does make a difference to people. My mum lives in a retirement flat which is very economical to heat. £200 is about 2.5 months heating for her which is the worst bit of winter. She, like lots of people, picked a home with low running costs as she was on a fixed low income. She doesn't get pension credits. She hasn't really complained about the change but she doesn't have much sympathy for people in big houses complaining about running costs to be fair.

Thanks. I have already told my mum to check this again. I will remind her.

But once her savings fall below the limit she will be entitled to claim PC? Eta: she might actually be entitled anyway as she can still claim, but a notional income of £1 will be applied for ever £500 of capital above £10k.

As for other people on PC having holidays and eating out several times a week, are you sure they get PC?

My mum was on PC and she got by OK, but there were no holidays, no eating out several times a week.

For anyone, pensioner or younger person that is struggling, it’s worth checking out entitlement on this site. Pension Credit is not affected by home ownership:

https://benefits-calculator.turn2us.org.uk/

@iwishihadknownmore I can assure mine does not have a horse groom! Anecdata gets us nowhere. All I keep hearing is "some can". Noone wants to know the truth is that many can't. And I phrased it badly re the economic forecast..I meant there is not agreement..sone studies predict the fall in roll and increase to state places will cancel out the revenue raised, or the claim back option will do similar.
I think the fact that they have gone for the nuclear option of introducing it to all, in January instead of a Sept 25 roll out, with possible options for it being applied at point of entry so that noone currently mid GCSE or whatever has to find it or move speaks volumes about the real motive here. If they'd showed some understanding of the issues faced rather than just a "stick it to the rich" approach, I'd be more convinced of their good faith.

Anecdata? you mean like your situation? ok for you to talk about how this will affect you but not ok for me to mention my experience of private schools.
The vast majority of PS children are not poor, middle income earners struggling to make ends meet.
Why can't this 7 billion be used to improve SENs provision in state schools, why should it remain in the hands of the very wealthy?

Millions of adults and children cannot access dentistry, millions more in poverty, so many failing schools, crumbling roads and public buildings.

Unless we tax the wealthy far more, then this country will continue its downward slide.

Will taxing fees make much of a difference? no it won't but if its part of an overall increase in taxation on the wealthy, who over the last few years have done extremely well, then its a good thing.

As i said early, its not going to be a 20%, even if your school does nothing to mitigate the extra expense, it will be 15%, a responsible school, that cares about any struggling parents will look at more cost saving measures, fund raising and charges for extra curricular activities.

Good point, an old family friend of mine is in her 80s and on pension credit. She goes on holiday 2x a year to visit her adult children & grandchildren in Europe.

Her adult children pay for everything.

She also goes out to eat once a week, but it is a lunch club at the local church for pensioners and is quite literally a free lunch. When we go out to eat, I pay for her.

But it is no one’s business that she isn’t paying for all this and we don’t even bring it up when together, it’s just what we do so she can be included as PC is not much to live on.

I suppose it depends what your definition of "very wealthy" is doesn't it? That's what it comes down to. Plenty of people have posted on these threads about how they are using PS out of desperation, not ideology. As I have repeatedly said, I would love not to have to use it, for my kids to be safe and have their needs met in state, along with everyone else's - I can barely, with a lot of use of long term debt, afford it whilst keeping a roof over our heads and food on the table, but some seem to think that makes me wealthy - I'm really not and I'm not the only one. As others' have said, this will entrench divide, not reduce it.
As for anecdata - I'm trying to demonstrate that actually very few PS have the sort of money and facilities that a lot of people think they have. Every thread on this topic is full of sweeping, inaccurate generalisations. Some schools can expand classes, lose a few extras etc - the result will likely be that some parents pull out, put their kids in state and the effectiveness of the policy is reduced. Some can absorb the costs, great. I'd just like someone to acknowledge that there ARE going to be children that suffer as a result of this without any surety that there will be a discernible improvement in state. Where are the extra teachers coming from? Where is the extra space for SEN hubs? How will they reduce the chaos of 1000+pupil comps so that ND kids can navigate the corridors at lesson change and lunchtime without being overwhelmed? Saying "there'll be extra money" isn't, by itself, a plan.

My mum is going to struggle, hope you are happy.

My friend's son with additional needs will be using a space at a state school and is really struggling with his mental health.

Also hope this makes you happy.

@RhaenysRocks I know of 4 PS near me, none of whom anyone outside of the area would have heard of.
They offer learning and sporting facilities that are off the scale compared to any state school in the same area.

Would be beyond incompetent if they cannot reduce costs but still keep their PS ethos.

I never said you are wealthy but the vast majority of PS parents very much are.
I read today that the combined wealth of the Sunday Times Rich List is larger than the economy of Poland.

When i had to move my child due to bullying, no one gave me a reduction on the transport fees i had to pay, you are expecting lower paid tax payers to subsidise your educational needs, Which most parents in this country cannot access & that 7 billion, if not raised by VAT on fees,will need to be paid for by other tax payers.

If I had a parent who would struggle for the want of £150 I’d transfer the money to her bank account.

I honestly don’t think people who have never had a child with sen or close friends/ family with sen children have any clue how bad the support for sen is and what a battle it is. To be fair before I had an autistic child I just assumed that children that needed a 1-1 or some other support just somehow for this, I had no comprehension that people were having to go to to tribunal just to get assessment, then potentially tribunal again to get support. You see comments all the time when people have kids that are struggling in mainstream and posters will say “have you thought about sending them to special school” like this is a choice that is actually available and the op hasn’t thought of it! It’s peoole like yourself who are hardest hit by the vat increase

Perhaps you could help your mum out? Dsibs and I try to help out where we can ( and when we’re allowed to!) with things like this in winter.
and as for your friends son, SEN provision in many state schools is excellent. There’s a myth that state schools are all terrible at everything, and the reality isn’t that were true none of us would be happy using them, and even our selfish, self interested bastard Tory ex- overlords would have had to have dealt with that.

And in the SEN front - and I am by no means saying this is the friend’s situation - Inwas amazed at how many of our friends kids who were absolutely fine, bright and able, in primary school suddenly got private SEN diagnosis in private secondaries until one mentioned that her private school encouraged the tests, oh and BTW that means more time in exams…

So how many parents send their SEN kids to a private school and are also struggling financially?

We have the current education funding issues because of 14 years of the Tories, no one gave a fuck that they were screwing over the poorest in society, the ones most impacted by Austerity, which most people moaning non stop about VAT on fees, would have voted for.

But the moment someone comes along to try and reverse the situation, oh my God, all hell breaks loose!

I wonder how many people complaining about WFA, moaned quite so loudly when Sunak increased student loan repayment period to 40 years, froze loan thresholds and even lowered the the salary at which repayments start?

answer? none, you voted for more of the same, fuck over the young whilst keeping what you ve got.

I really object to categorising anyone that can pay on average £17k/yr on school fees per child as “struggling financially”.

A worker with total before tax salary of £17k is in the 26th centile, in other words their salary is more than that of 25% of the population.
https://www.projectfinanciallyfree.com/uk-income-percentile-calculator/

To have £17k spare per child, you’re not struggling financially.
Struggling financially means to me struggling to pay for life’s basic essentials not struggling to purchase a very expensive luxury service when you have more than enough to cover life’s basic essentials.

@AboveBeyond3 are you an actuary?

anyone who’s in a private school ‘journey’ as I’ve noticed many of them call it are not ‘struggling’.
I totally understand why if you’re paying £25k for fees per child you don’t want to pay another £5k per child on top of that but it’s not most people’s definition of ‘struggling’.
Particularly when there is an easy alternative, one that the majority of families already happily use…

where are these figures for fees coming from? They vary enormously and there are myriad surrounding circumstances related to housing costs, geographical location. I don't think I will continue to argue this. There are too many variables that are relevant that can't be answered without giving out very specific relevant details - suffice to say I am one of many from very ordinary backgrounds in ordinary careers (not NMW but nothing remotely special) that has found a way to support my child according to their need and are now being villified as the evil "rich" who own half of Poland. No sensible conversation can be had in that context - especially when pp are casting doubt on the SEN diagnoses as above. I'm out.

If you are lucky enough to be physically able to work that long. Statistically, around 1/3rd end up unable to work due to illness/injury before the current pension age as is.

The latest census from the Independent Schools Council (ISC) reveals that the average fee for a day school is now £6,021 per term – or £18,064 per year for 2023-24 academic year. The census is based on a survey of 1,411 UK independent schools in January.
https://whichschooladvisor.com/uk/school-news/rising-cost-of-uk-private-school-fees-families-paying-average-ps18000-a-year

I had £17k in my head as that was the 22/23 figure

No one is saying you are part of the ‘evil rich what own half of Poland’ if that even is a thing.

I simply object characterising what is obviously privilege as just being ordinary or average.